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Author Topic:   Kansas State School Board At It Once Again
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5175 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 76 of 136 (205640)
05-06-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jazzns
05-06-2005 12:17 PM


Hearings coverage May 6, 2005
Here are excerpts from today's coverage, available in its entirety at:
Topeka Capital Journal
Opponents of the hearings by a three-member panel of the Kansas State Board of Education say they are a "publicity stunt" -- more theater than substance. But critics say it is essential that the state board and students learn more about evidence that contradicts evolution -- viewpoints they say are often shunned by closed-minded colleagues.
"We would go a long way in this discussion by simply having the majority view say, 'We don't know' instead of saying, 'We do know and this is what it is: It's a naturalistic process,' " said William Harris, the first witness and a leading proponent of changing the standards.
Some of the changes Harris and others are proposing are consistent with intelligent design, but Harris said intelligent design is a "new and maturing science" and it would be inappropriate to mandate teaching it. Instead, he said, students should learn evidence against the theory of evolution, particularly when it comes to species evolving into new species.
"Secondly, we want to make the point that this controversy has profound implications for religion and philosophy," he said. "If this did not have implications for religion, this room would be far emptier today."
"The fact the other side isn't here, that speaks volumes to me because they cannot defend themselves," Nancy Hanahan, of Overland Park, said of those boycotting the proceedings.
But those who refused to participate in the hearings said their actions were justified. Harry McDonald, president of Kansas Citizens for Science, said state board members already have made up their minds and scientists didn't want to give the "appearance of a legitimate debate."
Thursday was the first of three days in which critics of evolution will make their case. During about eight hours of testimony, six witnesses brought by lawyer John Calvert, managing director of the Intelligent Design network, made the case for transforming a minority viewpoint into new curriculum standards for schoolchildren in Kansas.
The three conservative state board members serving as a jury for the hearings were a receptive and sometimes adoring audience for the witnesses.
"I'm an elementary teacher, and I am humbled by the intelligence before me, so bear with me," Connie Morris, of St. Francis, told Charles Thaxton, who has a doctorate in physical chemistry and has written books about the weaknesses he sees in the theory of evolution.
Thaxton said there is no evidence of a "primordial soup" from which life would have emerged.
"I can go out of here, and people will say to me, 'You've been saying there is evidence that refutes Darwin's theory of evolution,' " Morris said. "I've been hoping this hearing would help me have some good, hard evidence that I can show."
But critics of the witnesses described the testimony as misleading and sometimes uninformed.
Topeka lawyer Pedro Irigonegaray, who is representing those opposed to the hearings, asked pointed questions as he cross-examined witnesses.
"Would you suggest," Irigonegaray later asked Harris, "that any time that we do not have a natural explanation we ought to stop looking for it and invoke miracles?"
William S. Harris, a University of Missouri-Kansas City professor and proponent of intelligent design, presents his testimony.
"If we don't have a natural explanation we should keep looking for it," Harris responded, "but there has got to be a point -- just as it came with the alchemist of the Middle Ages -- where someone said, 'Enough is enough. We're not going to make gold out of lead.'
************
So apparently Troy was right.
Judging from Ms. Morris, apparently anyone can get on a school board.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 136 (205727)
05-06-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by coffee_addict
05-06-2005 1:53 PM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
i am a christian and i can read just fine. what if god made me smarter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by coffee_addict, posted 05-06-2005 1:53 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 136 (205730)
05-06-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-06-2005 7:28 PM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
we need god in school. He knows what to teach us.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2285
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 79 of 136 (205748)
05-06-2005 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
05-06-2005 7:29 PM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
we need god in school. He knows what to teach us
While I agree that we can all learn from Odin the Allfather, I don't see why he has to be in our publicly funded schools.

*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 80 of 136 (205752)
05-06-2005 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-06-2005 7:28 PM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
Charismaniac writes:
i am a christian and i can read just fine. what if god made me smarter?
Those two sentences contradict with each other, considering that I never said that all christians can't read or less smart than non-christians.
I welcome you to the boards. For some useful guides on how to communicate effectively on these boards, please click on the link in my signature.
This message has been edited by Troy, 05-06-2005 09:06 PM

People, please look at the Style Guide for EvC thread by Sylas. Pay particular attention to step 3.
SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Refusal to use the search engine may cause brain cancer.

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5175 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 81 of 136 (205846)
05-07-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
05-06-2005 7:29 PM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
Charismania writes:
we need god in school. He knows what to teach us.
Sorry, but no.
We have plenty of churches to choose from if you want religious teachings. We also have privately-funded religious schools that you can send your kids to if you want.
But *publicly-funded* schools MUST remain secular. Even if we ignore the rights of atheists (which I don't, because I am one), the problem with bringing any 'god' into a public school is that whose god are you going to choose ?
If you choose a Judao-Christian god, you disenfranchize muslims and on and on.

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Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 82 of 136 (206050)
05-08-2005 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by EZscience
05-07-2005 1:11 PM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
EZscience writes:
quote:
If you choose a Judao-Christian god
There's no such thing as the "Judeo-Christian" god.
To the Christians, god had a son. To the Jews, god could never have a son.
There is no such thing as "non-denominational."

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by EZscience, posted 05-07-2005 1:11 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by EZscience, posted 05-08-2005 5:30 AM Rrhain has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 83 of 136 (206055)
05-08-2005 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
04-23-2005 9:48 AM


Versions
Well, I happen to believe that Theology should be taught in the classroom. I'd go so far as to say that Sacred Studies should be one of the continuing mandatory subjects from at least the First Form on.
Who's version of god's logic should we teach?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 04-23-2005 9:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5175 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 84 of 136 (206062)
05-08-2005 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Rrhain
05-08-2005 2:59 AM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
Rrhain writes:
There is no such thing as "non-denominational."
I agree. That's my point.
Whatever is taught about *any* religion in a public classroom is always going to offend someone who happens to believe in a different god or belief system. I guess we could take Jar's advice (message 64 on this thread) and have a theology class where all belief systems are given equal coverage, but do you really think that would appease the protestant fundamentalists who are making this unjustified assault on the teaching of evolution? They don't want an objective course of study on the bases of all religions and philosophy, they want *their* religious 'values' imposed as an insidious undercurrent in all disciplines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Rrhain, posted 05-08-2005 2:59 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Rrhain, posted 05-08-2005 5:04 PM EZscience has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 136 (206102)
05-08-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by tsig
05-08-2005 3:33 AM


Re: Versions
Come on over to Message 1 where I answer that in depth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 86 of 136 (206183)
05-08-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by EZscience
05-08-2005 5:30 AM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
EZscience responds to me:
quote:
I guess we could take Jar's advice (message 64 on this thread) and have a theology class where all belief systems are given equal coverage
The problem is that there isn't enough time to do this. Somebody will be left out. It isn't even enough to talk about "Christian." Do you mean Orthodox? Catholic? Protestant? There is sufficient granularity among all the various sects that simply trying to discuss a single major branch of theologic dogma would take the entire term. That doesn't mean it isn't a worthy thing to attempt, but it isn't something that the K-12 systems should be handling.
quote:
They don't want an objective course of study on the bases of all religions and philosophy
Absolutely correct. That's the insidious nature of the term "ID." It's a way of saying "god did it" without having to use the word "god." They claim that they're not injecting religion into the discussion. And yet, when you follow these people outside of the town hall after making their speeches to the school board, you find that they are all of the opinion that the "I" that "Ded" is god. They never consider the possibility that it were aliens.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5175 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 87 of 136 (206194)
05-08-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Rrhain
05-08-2005 5:04 PM


Re: Back on topic - The hearings begin....
Let's move this to the other thread.
I agree with you about ID theorists, but I am not so sure about the aliens...
This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-08-2005 05:21 PM

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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5175 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 88 of 136 (206428)
05-09-2005 10:41 AM


Latest on the hearings..
Some excerpts from an article in the Kansas City Star
"Most of the 23 witnesses that Calvert led through scripted questions favor intelligent design over evolution. Only four of those witnesses were Kansans.
Pedro Irigonegaray, a Topeka lawyer, represented pro-evolution scientists in the hearings by questioning witnesses to expose their motives and inconsistent testimony.
"We should not allow the minority, in essence, to hijack education and send it back to the 16th century," he said.
On Thursday, Irigonegaray will present a response to defend evolution and "counter all of the ridiculous ideas we've heard in the last three days."
The minority group wants the state board to endorse a more critical approach to evolution and expect teachers to explain some of the holes in the central theory of biology. They also want to change the way science is defined as a search for "natural explanations," because they say that represents an endorsement of naturalism and atheism.
One of the other witnesses was a Turkish newspaper columnist with no science background but a nearly 10-year-old interest in intelligent design. Mustafa Akyol testified that the naturalistic bias in Kansas' science standards contributes to the ill will between the Muslim world and the United States.
He urged the board to adopt the critical approach to help alleviate that ill will.
"This is not the only reason for anti-Westernism, but it is an important one," he said.
Throughout the hearings and again Saturday, witnesses repeated the objection that the proposed standards are biased against intelligent design and against religion because they describe science as a search for natural explanations.
Philosophy professor Angus Menuge said that bias in favor of naturalism would rule out any scientific evidence that would support a theistic religion, making the standards like a religion.
When Irigonegaray asked him about the thousands of scientists who accept evolution and are religious, the Concordia University professor angered many of the mainstream scientists in the room.
"It might be that some of these people are confused," he said.
Rachel Robson, a doctoral student studying pathology at the University of Kansas, mocked Menuge's statement.
"I understand how it would be good for their case if believing in evolution meant you were an atheist," Robson said. "If that were true, I'd be on their side. But it's not."
Later, some of the religious evolution supporters in the crowd started wearing name tags with the word "confused" on them.
The mainstream scientists, like Jack Krebs, weren't convinced.
"These folks are trying to redefine science as an atheistic philosophy, so they can advance their theological goal," said Krebs, vice president of the pro-evolution Kansas Citizens For Science.
Some changes in the way evolution is treated in the science standards are expected because conservative Republicans control six of the 10 seats on the state board.
When conservatives last controlled the Kansas board in 1999, they voted to de-emphasize evolution in the standards, leaving the decision whether to teach it up to local school boards.
That decision earned the state ridicule nationwide and prompted voters to elect a moderate majority to the board. Moderates restored evolution to the standards in the spring of 2001.
---
Like we needed another reason NOT to vote for conservatives in this country. Interesting strategy, though. Argue that teaching evolution amounts to teaching a 'naturalistic' religion - EZ
This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-09-2005 10:44 AM

  
MisterOpus1
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 136 (206567)
05-09-2005 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
03-02-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Well, they gave up on the idea of a trial.
Others have covered this story pretty well, but I would like to submit the reply to these questions jar posted from my local paper by Dr. Steve Case, co-chair of the science standards writing committee:
Welcome kcfs.org - BlueHost.com
I also posted a diary for any Daily Kos readers on this topic, primarily outlining the religious intent of those behind the ID movement to uproot evolution from our Kansas schools. Anyone attempting to state that this is NOT a religious movement is either horribly misinformed or blatantly lying. I tend to find in almost every case it seems to be the latter, and not the former:
What Are Us Kansas Natives Truly Up Against With This Evolution "Trial"?
Much of my sources I freely admit came from the KCFS website:
Welcome kcfs.org - BlueHost.com
And a very useful and informative blog from another local Lawrence resident, Josh Rosenau with updates on the "trial" can be found here:
Redirecting
HTH
Opus
Edit: One other thing to note - on our local Channel 6 News last night, there was a confession given by the 3 Conservative Board Members who are holding these "trials"/"hearings"/whateveryouwannacalltheseshananigans. When asked if any had read the Appproved Draft 2 on the Science Standards (written by the majority on the science panel), only 1 of the members admitted to fully reading Draft 2 (Steve Abrams). Of course it remains to be seen as to whether or not he actually understands it, but I digress. The other 2 members stated that they only "skimmed" the approved draft.
Strange how just merely skimming the approved draft written by actual scientists gives them so much of a supporting opinion to take the Minority Report that advocates ID instead......
This message has been edited by MisterOpus1, 05-09-2005 05:46 PM

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 136 (208974)
05-17-2005 7:51 AM


True Colours revealed
Well it appears that the Kansas board has revealed its true intent, which is not to consider the merits of ID vs Evo as scientific enterprises, but to change scientific methodology such that ID can count as a scientific enterprise in the first place.
From Yahoo article on the Kansas board meetings...
The Kansas school board's hearings on evolution weren't limited to how the theory should be taught in public schools. The board is considering redefining science itself. Advocates of "intelligent design" are pushing the board to reject a definition limiting science to natural explanations for what's observed in the world.
Instead, they want to define it as "a systematic method of continuing investigation," without specifying what kind of answer is being sought. The definition would appear in the introduction to the state's science standards.
This should be seen as IDists tossing a towel into the ring in this debate, but I'm pretty sure it will be viewed as some sort of advance forward for science. Back to the future and all that.
So long science, it was good while it lasted. On the bright side I'll be able to revive the family trade of Witchsmeller Pursuyvent.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Replies to this message:
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