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Author Topic:   Why Darwinism is wrong
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 106 of 305 (205893)
05-07-2005 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by TheNewGuy03
05-07-2005 1:10 AM


In essence, you say that creationists are mindless, ignorant cranks. Not so ironically, creationists think evolutionists are mindless, ignorant cranks.
Right, but they're wrong. (What did you expect?)
Like I said earlier, the evidence is in, but it is trimmed and fitted into theory, simply because no one knows anything.
"No one knows anything?" Where did you get such a stupid idea? Just because we don't know everything, we know nothing? Why do I get the feeling that that doesn't stop you from going to doctors, taking medicines, eating food, and, oh, can't forget, using a computer?
Moreover, the evidence of evolution predates the theory of evolution. How did the people who came up with evolution trim and fit evidence "into" a theory they hadn't come up with yet?
You've got it completely backwards. The theory is based on the evidence; only in creationism is the evidence cherry-picked according to the theories.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 05-07-2005 05:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by TheNewGuy03, posted 05-07-2005 1:10 AM TheNewGuy03 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by TheNewGuy03, posted 05-09-2005 3:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 305 (205899)
05-07-2005 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by NosyNed
05-07-2005 11:49 AM


Re: talking about mutation before
Originally posted by NosyNed:
Did you mean "speciation" and not "mutation"?
Probably, Darwinians mean only mutations leading to different allele frequencies occur randomly. If mutations leading to creation of speciation do not occur randomly, they are products of RM&NS, unless some Darwinians claim it in that way.
Let me know if you think otherwise.
My positions is that all mutations occur randomly without NS.
What do you think that evolutionary theory says about speciation?
It is you guys that tell me what you think. Why are you so shy? or shameful?

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 11:49 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 6:31 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 305 (205909)
05-07-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Wounded King
05-06-2005 1:00 PM


Continued with my reply:
I understand how I was using it, but I don't assume that you neccessarily understood what I was saying or were using the same meaning. Also since I was using an inclusive rather than exclusive example it isn't a problem. Since you are using it to exclude a certain level of events it is up to you to make that level explicit.
This part just shows you desparate, starting playing word game.
I do not know what you mean with significant or non-significant, inclusive or exclusive. You can play the same trick to every word I said. My experience tells me Darwinians very skillful of the trick.
A high school physics teacher can provide pretty substantial experimental evidence for the existence of electrons, why should it be beyond you?
I present my evidences in the website, middle school kids at my neighors can understand them easily. Why are they beyond you?
I've seen a number of proposed falsifications of modern evolutionary theory on this very site, what is wrong with them?
The topic here is "why Darwinism is wrong". If you agree with the title, we might look at other ones to see if they are wrong also.

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Wounded King, posted 05-06-2005 1:00 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Wounded King, posted 05-09-2005 6:38 AM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 305 (205914)
05-07-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by mick
05-07-2005 4:18 PM


Originally posted by mick:
I ask you a simple question:
Can you tell me how speciation occur by RMNS, so I will start from there?
You quotes a long text. Just like one asks you how to get town A to Town B, you tells the person "you will find out after you walk a complete circle on earth".
That transforming a simple thing into a complicated one is one of the best skills Darwinians own.

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by mick, posted 05-07-2005 4:18 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 6:34 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied
 Message 112 by mick, posted 05-07-2005 6:43 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 110 of 305 (205916)
05-07-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 5:40 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
Probably, Darwinians mean only mutations leading to different allele frequencies occur randomly. If mutations leading to creation of speciation do not occur randomly, they are products of RM&NS, unless some Darwinians claim it in that way.
Let me know if you think otherwise.
My positions is that all mutations occur randomly without NS.
"Probably"?? You said it. Did you mean to say mutation or speciation?
The rest of what you said is not understandable to me at all. Perhaps you can explain more clearly?
It is you guys that tell me what you think. Why are you so shy? or shameful?
You have been given some examples by others. The reason I am asking is because you seem to have a number of things very confused. It may help if we can get your ideas of just what evolutionary theory says. Then we can continue to correct your misunderstandings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 5:40 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 6:58 PM NosyNed has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 111 of 305 (205921)
05-07-2005 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 6:29 PM


Complex?
You quotes a long text. Just like one asks you how to get town A to Town B, you tells the person "you will find out after you walk a complete circle on earth".
That transforming a simple thing into a complicated one is one of the best skills Darwinians own.
Since it seems giving you real answers is more than you can understand right now I repeat that it may be useful for you to explain what your understanding is. That is a normal approach when trying to help someone understand something. You have to figure out what level they are at first. Then you tailor the explanation for them.
It seems you need a lot of help. There are people here who might be able to help but you will have to put the work into that to get it going.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 6:29 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 7:04 PM NosyNed has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 112 of 305 (205924)
05-07-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 6:29 PM


Hi Jianyi
Okay, here's a quick digest:
In Xiphophorus, there are differences between species in the expression level of promoters and suppressors acting on an oncogene. Hybridization between X. maculatus and X. helleri is unsuccessful because the genetically-determined difference in expression levels of promoters and suppressors in the parent species result in offspring that die of cancer. Consequently, the oncogene and its associated regulatory elements act as a reproductive isolation mechanism. The evolutionary hypothesis is that accumulated mutations in the regulatory system underlying oncogene activity result in reproductive isolation between divergent populations. Species integrity in these fish is maintained by the Xmrk-2 locus.
This is one possible mechanism by which reproductive isolation can result from small changes in single genes.
The other examples I quoted give examples of different species, different genes, and different mechanisms by which single genes, or genes plus their regulatory elements, play a role in the reproductive isolation of species. In all cases, the genes have been identified and mapped onto a chromosomal location, and their phenotypic effect has been experimentally determined.
It appears that speciation can indeed result from or be maintained by random mutation and natural selection.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 6:29 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-08-2005 12:50 AM mick has not replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 305 (205927)
05-07-2005 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by NosyNed
05-07-2005 6:31 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
You have been given some examples by others. The reason I am asking is because you seem to have a number of things very confused. It may help if we can get your ideas of just what evolutionary theory says. Then we can continue to correct your misunderstandings.
The trick is no matter what I say, you can alwyse say it wrong.
Why do you start with something correct, so we can move on, unless you do not know what the correct is. So let us start wit Darwinian RMNS in speciation first, igoring others.

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 6:31 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 7:54 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied
 Message 117 by mick, posted 05-07-2005 8:01 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 305 (205930)
05-07-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by NosyNed
05-07-2005 6:34 PM


Re: Complex?
Originally posted by NosyNed:
It seems you need a lot of help. There are people here who might be able to help but you will have to put the work into that to get it going.
You should help yourself first. Beside parroting Darwin, Mayr, Dawkins, what else do you have, Sir?

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 6:34 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 7:57 PM Jianyi Zhang has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 115 of 305 (205949)
05-07-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 6:58 PM


getting it wrong and right
The trick is no matter what I say, you can alwyse say it wrong.
This particular exchange started when you posted:
zhang writes:
It is you, Darwinist who claims mutation occur by natural selection.
I asked you what you meant and eventually you said that your "probably" meant to say "speciation" rather than "mutation". I didn't get what you said wrong you said it wrong.
If you would just try to back up and clarify what you do think then we could move forward.
As for speciation and how it happens according to evolutionary theory. I agree that it happens by RM and NS. However, my understanding of the biology ( I am not a biologist) suggests that for much of the time there are additional requirements. One thing that can produce speciation is an interruption of gene flow within a population which effectively produces two populations. Once you have that condition then ongoing RM and NS will inevitably produce greadualy more diverse populations. Eventually some change will make interbreeding impossible and you have a speciation event.
It seems to me to be a totally logical outcome of the basic mechanisms of RM and NS. It is also possible to find examples of it occuring today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 6:58 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 10:41 PM NosyNed has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 116 of 305 (205952)
05-07-2005 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 7:04 PM


help?
You don't even seem to be able to successfully parrot those who have done the research in the field.
Until you show that you understand what it is you are argueing with it doesn't seem likely to be productive to discuss what is wrong with it with you.
You can not examine and correct ideas that you don't understand. It is not at all clear that you do understand neo-darwinism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 7:04 PM Jianyi Zhang has not replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 117 of 305 (205956)
05-07-2005 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 6:58 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
let us start wit Darwinian RMNS in speciation first, igoring others
Hi Jianyi,
After posting my last thread, I took a look at your website to examine the evidence you have against the involvement of RMNS in speciation.
First, you say that
Assuming speciation did occur by natural selection from unknown mechanism, the new species needs to find the same species at the same time in a very close geographical location along the evolutionary pathway across a few million years. If one fly were generated somewhere along the pathway, then it had to mate with another fly in the same species to have offspring. If the second fly were generated a few miles away, the chances of meeting would be dismal. If the second were generated in the following year, then they would die without reproduction. Had the speciation occurred according to Darwin’s theory, it would be mandatory to randomly generate a group of organisms with same genetic structure simultaneous in a very close geographical location. The probability for such thing is zero.
your mistake here is to think that speciation occurs in individual organisms. This is a significant misunderstanding of the conemporary view of speciation, in which speciation occurs between divergent populations of organisms. all of the references I provided in the article by Wu and Ting take this idea for granted.
let me try to explain the Xiphophorus example in a more conceptual manner. I am going to depart slightly from the description given by Wu and Ting, and give an imaginary example based on the idea of a melanin oncogene. hopefully this will make the idea clearer.
Imagine you have a population of fish which use black coloration to attract mates. The gene causing black coloration has to be expressed at a fairly precise level. Not enough black coloration leads to an absence of sexual marking, and a failure to reproduce. Overexpression of black coloration leads to melanoma, and death.
In order to control the expression of the gene that produces black coloration, the fish have two regulatory genes. One is a promoter (which encourages expression of the gene) and one is an inhibitor (which discourages expression of the gene).
Now, imagine that the population of fish becomes geographically isolated. Perhaps one group of fish swim upstream, into a lake, while another group swims downstream, into some ditches. It is very rare for a fish from the lake to accidentally find itself in the ditches, and it is very rare for a fish from the ditches to swim all the way up to the lake.
In the lake population, random mutations in the promoter gene cause slight overexpression of the gene controlling black coloration. This slightly increases the prevalence of melanoma in the population, but not to the extent that they all die of cancer. Nevertheless, any mutation causing slight overexpression of the inhibitor gene are favoured by natural selection.
In the ditch population, random mutations cause the opposite to happen. Mutations in the promoter gene reduce its biological activity, and cause slight underexpression of the gene controlling black coloration. Any mutation causing underexpression of the inhibitor gene is consequently favoured by natural selection.
Over many generations, the two populations get quite different regulatory systems operating on the same gene. One population has an extremely strong promoter and an extremely strong inhibitor. The other population has an extremely weak promoter and an extremely weak inhibitor. Both populations express the correct amount of black coloration, because the strength of promoters and inhibitors balance each other out.
Now imagine that the two populations come back into contact. When they hybridize, you end up with two unfit hybrids.
1. An offspring has an extremely strong promoter, but an extremely weak inhibitor.
2. An offspring has an extremely strong inhibitor, but an extremely weak promoter.
The first type of offspring produce too much melanin, get cancer, and die.
The second type of offspring produce not enough melanin, are unable to find mates, and do not reproduce.
As a consequence, the two populations are reproductively isolated from each other. Only if they mate "with their own kind" are they successful in producing viable young.
This is ONE idea of how speciation might occur by RMNS. It depends upon selection upon alleles in populations, not individuals.
There is not one single mechanism of how speciation might occur by RMNS. The example I have described clearly only applies for species with an oncogene that is involved in reproductive activity. But, in principle, any gene involved in reproduction and regulated by a number of loci might undergo a similar process.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 6:58 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 11:45 PM mick has replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 305 (206000)
05-07-2005 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by NosyNed
05-07-2005 7:54 PM


Re: getting it wrong and right
Originally posted by NosyNed:
As for speciation and how it happens according to evolutionary theory. I agree that it happens by RM and NS. However, my understanding of the biology ( I am not a biologist)
You are not, I am.
suggests that for much of the time there are additional requirements.
One thing that can produce speciation is an interruption of gene flow within a population which effectively produces two populations.
Do you mean geographical isolation? If yes, please reas some book by Mayr. By his idea, geographical isolation can transform two population into two species without NS at all. So, RMNS is not appliable.
Once you have that condition then ongoing RM and NS will inevitably produce greadualy more diverse populations. Eventually some change will make interbreeding impossible and you have a speciation event.
Theory of geographical isolation is also based on imagination, it cannot be falsified, and it is another pseudo-science, just like Darwin's RMNS.
It seems to me to be a totally logical outcome of the basic mechanisms of RM and NS.
It is logic to you, as you are not a biologist, and have no basic idea about biology.
You should learn some HS or college biology before you offer helps to a biologist for evolutionary theories, if you have some feeling of shame.

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 7:54 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by NosyNed, posted 05-07-2005 11:00 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied
 Message 120 by nator, posted 05-07-2005 11:11 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 119 of 305 (206010)
05-07-2005 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 10:41 PM


Re: getting it wrong and right
You are not, I am.
Rather astonishing that.
Do you mean geographical isolation? If yes, please reas some book by Mayr. By his idea, geographical isolation can transform two population into two species without NS at all. So, RMNS is not appliable.
Geographical isloation is only one way to interrupt gene flow and I suspect a major one.
I would be interested in a quote from the Mayr source on this topic.
I would, however, agree that in theory NS is not needed once populations are isolated. All you have to do is get enough drift would you not? However, NS is very hard to avoid in the real world. So it will be acting as well. Certainly if the separated populations are actually geographically separated in different environments then NS will hasten the chances of speciation.
Theory of geographical isolation is also based on imagination, it cannot be falsified, and it is another pseudo-science, just like Darwin's RMNS.
I'll have to think of some direct falsifications (and could use some help from real biolgists on this) however if the theory is correct there are certain things we should observe in the wild. One of which is populations that are separated and moving in the direction of separate species. This has been observed. Ring species are another example.
A falsification could be performed if a population was separated and did not show any divergance. Since populations have not only show divergance but actual speciation this particular falsification fails.
It is logic to you, as you are not a biologist, and have no basic idea about biology.
You should learn some HS or college biology before you offer helps to a biologist for evolutionary theories, if you have some feeling of shame.
Since you don't see the logic I will try to spell it out in simpler steps.
1) Populations undergo genetic changes when mutations occur and selection or drift happens.
2) If two separate but genetic nearly identical populations are undergoing such changes but have NO gene flow between them the changes in each population will be different.
3) Enough changes can, if they are in the right places prevent fertile matings between the populations.
What steps in that reasoning do you disagree with and why do you disagree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 10:41 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-08-2005 11:46 AM NosyNed has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 120 of 305 (206012)
05-07-2005 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 10:41 PM


Re: getting it wrong and right
Jianyi, where did you earn your Biology degree, and what degree level are you at?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 10:41 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 11:50 PM nator has replied

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