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Author Topic:   Why Darwinism is wrong
Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 305 (206186)
05-08-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by mick
05-08-2005 4:56 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
The existence of widespread, cheap international travel and immigration suggests that we will not witness any future speciation events in the Homo sapiens lineage. This is because of the basic population genetic principle that gene flow reduces reproductive isolation.
Many tribes has been isolated for long time before international travel and immigration. If you think they move into different species over time, that is your imagination.
You may wish to educate me by providing me with evidence that RMNS is NOT capable of generating reproductive isolation, with reference to the article by Wu and Ting.
I can not, nobody can. It is unfalsified and that is what pseudo-science means. You can not DISPROVE it. You even do not understand the questions I posted, I have nothing to say.
This message has been edited by Jianyi Zhang, 05-08-2005 05:19 PM

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 4:56 PM mick has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 305 (206187)
05-08-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by mick
05-08-2005 4:56 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
Mick
Let's discuss neighbors and towns.
Assume for a moment that we establish colonies on other planets. New towns. Also consider that the cost of transportation is such that regular communication between towns is limited (for example, it might be limited by time dilation if the colonies are far enough apart)
Would humans under such condition speciate? Would we find that 100-1000 generations down the road the folk living around star A are a different species than those around star B?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 4:56 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 5:32 PM jar has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 138 of 305 (206197)
05-08-2005 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
05-08-2005 5:09 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
Would we find that 100-1000 generations down the road the folk living around star A are a different species than those around star B?
Jar, under conditions of random mating and unlimited travel within planets, the number of generations required for speciation depends largely on the population sizes of each planet, because this is what determines the amount of genetic drift. The average time for fixation of a new nearly-neutral mutation in such a diploid population is in the order of 4N (where N is the population size). Beware that this distribution has an extremely high variance.
If you decide on a reasonable number of nearly-neutral mutations that might permit reproductive isolation, and settle on some initial population sizes for the two planets, you can calculate the expected number of generations prior to reproductive isolation, and you can calculate 95% confidence limits on the time (but the latter will be very wide).
In principle it is perfectly possible for a speciation event to occur in the human lineage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 05-08-2005 5:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-08-2005 5:34 PM mick has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 139 of 305 (206198)
05-08-2005 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by mick
05-08-2005 5:32 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
That is with unlimited travel. If, as I specified in my message, travel was limited between towns (worlds), what would the effect be?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 5:32 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 5:41 PM jar has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 140 of 305 (206200)
05-08-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
05-08-2005 5:34 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
jar, I only said unlimited travel WITHIN worlds, not between them.
The expectation of 4N generations for a single mutation to be fixed by drift applies within a truly randomly mating population (i.e. the population on earth, OR the population on mars).
Nonrandom mating may reduce the time required for fixation within local populations, simply because it reduces the effective population size of a mating group.
Travel between earth and mars will increase the time, because mutations are being transferred along with travellers between the two planets.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-08-2005 5:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 05-08-2005 5:51 PM mick has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 305 (206202)
05-08-2005 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by mick
05-08-2005 5:41 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
Very good. Just wanted to make sure.
One of the arguments I see around here often resolves to "Why don't we see humans evolving?"
Two questions I've always had were
  • how often should we expect to see something like that happen?
  • would we recognize an evolved human if there was one?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 5:41 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 6:11 PM jar has not replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 142 of 305 (206211)
05-08-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jar
05-08-2005 5:51 PM


Re: talking about mutation before
One of the arguments I see around here often resolves to "Why don't we see humans evolving?"
If you mean "why don't we see humans speciating", the answer is simply that we have too high a gene flow and too large a reproductive population. Both of these pop.gen. parameters are vastly higher than the historical values.
If you mean "why don't we see humans evolving" then of course the answer is that we do.
how often should we expect to see something like that happen?
A new nearly-neutral allele is expected to spread throughout the entire global population of human beings in something considerably more than 32 billion generations (that is, if my recollection of the 4N equation is correct). Whether this has anything to do with speciation is anybody's guess. That's why speciation tends to occur in small isolated populations, where the time taken for alleles to fix is considerably lower.
This is the main reason why we don't expect to see a new species of Homo any time soon.
Of course we may want to consider an allele that has a selective benefit for the human population. that would spread much faster. I'm only talking here about a neutral allele - one that makes no difference whether you have it or not. Now imagine a selectively beneficial allele in a small isolated population, and the numbers start to get reasonable (kind of).
would we recognize an evolved human if there was one?
You wouldn't. There was nothing special about the common ancestor of all living human beings. She was just lucky. She looked exactly the same as any other female Homo sapiens.

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 Message 141 by jar, posted 05-08-2005 5:51 PM jar has not replied

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 Message 145 by EZscience, posted 05-09-2005 9:51 AM mick has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 143 of 305 (206248)
05-08-2005 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Jianyi Zhang
05-08-2005 10:58 AM


Re: getting it wrong and right
I am just interested in reading your other work.
Can you list a citation, please?
Also, who was your advisor for your PhD work?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-08-2005 10:58 AM Jianyi Zhang has not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 144 of 305 (206368)
05-09-2005 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Jianyi Zhang
05-07-2005 6:15 PM


This part just shows you desparate, starting playing word game.
I do not know what you mean with significant or non-significant, inclusive or exclusive. You can play the same trick to every word I said. My experience tells me Darwinians very skillful of the trick.
I use a phrase in a specific context, you then use the phase in a different but related context and I am supposed to assume they are the same? Why? I didn't specify any particular level of event so how on Earth can I assume that your estimation of the neccessary level to be either significant, or large scale in the case of the change, is the same as mine.
If you actually define your terms clearly then I can't play any trick at all so why not explain in slightly more detail what you mean by
The data shows all significant events in the evolutionary history of life not simply a product of simple small scale genetic mutations, no exception.
It isn't as if you actually referenced any source for this data so how is one to contextualise it?
I present my evidences in the website, middle school kids at my neighors can understand them easily. Why are they beyond you?
Well why not direct me there rather than claim that you can't show me any evidence and as a defence then claim that you couldn't show me evidence of electrons, quarks etc.. either?
The topic here is "why Darwinism is wrong". If you agree with the title, we might look at other ones to see if they are wrong also.
So you are choosing to draw a clear distinction between Darwinism and modern evolutionary sciece? One might wonder why you would choose to attack a theory more than 150 years old rather than its modern descendent. The obvious answer is that in those instances where Darwin was wrong, such as on blending inheritance, he simply lacked the wealth of information we have today which would have allowed him to make his theory fit the real world more accurately. Similarly omissions of things like HGT in bacteria and endosymbiosis are entirely understandable given the scientific level of the day.
So Darwin's original formulation has a number of errors and ommissions in the light of our current knowledge, but the basic theory is still as sound as it ever was.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-07-2005 6:15 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 1:17 PM Wounded King has replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5174 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 145 of 305 (206411)
05-09-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by mick
05-08-2005 6:11 PM


Re: Speciation by humans unlikely
Mick writes:
This is the main reason why we don't expect to see a new species of Homo any time soon.
I agree Mick.
The large effective population size of humanity is enough to prevent speciation.
High dispersal frequency of individuals among subpopulations facilitated by modern technology generates the high gene flow you mention.
And we know it only takes very little gene flow to prevent speciation.
Also, we are far too 'K-selected' to evolve quickly in the genetic sense. Cultural evolution is another matter entirely, and here is where we can see rapid changes within the span of one lifetime.
One of the key factors determining the rate of *genetic* evolution (and hence also speciation) is the generation time of the species.
Assuming a median age at first reproduction of around 20 (I know its less in many underdeveloped countries) you can have only about 50 human generations per millenium, which isn't much. Just to put your theoretical extrapolation of 32 billion generations into some context, which I assume is derived from N (effective population size).
This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-09-2005 11:01 AM

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 Message 142 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 6:11 PM mick has not replied

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 Message 146 by AdminNosy, posted 05-09-2005 10:56 AM EZscience has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 146 of 305 (206436)
05-09-2005 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by EZscience
05-09-2005 9:51 AM


T i t l e!
Could you note the title of your post?
It can be useful for others browsing threads to have meaningful titles. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by EZscience, posted 05-09-2005 9:51 AM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 5174 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 147 of 305 (206439)
05-09-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by AdminNosy
05-09-2005 10:56 AM


Re: T i t l e!
Yes. Good point.
I notice many threads where titles should have been altered much earlier.
I appologize for my laziness.
EZ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by AdminNosy, posted 05-09-2005 10:56 AM AdminNosy has not replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 305 (206488)
05-09-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Wounded King
05-09-2005 6:38 AM


I use a phrase in a specific context, you then use the phase in a different but related context and I am supposed to assume they are the same? Why? I didn't specify any particular level of event so how on Earth can I assume that your estimation of the neccessary level to be either significant, or large scale in the case of the change, is the same as mine.
It is meaningless to find out what significant events are in biology, it depends on individual preference.
My position is very clear, all events, no matter it is point mutation, or change of chromosomal number, are all outcome of random mutations. NS only works on these pre-existed mutations.
It isn't as if you actually referenced any source for this data so how is one to contextualise it?
I list many of them, such as lateral transfer in bacteria, polyploids in plants, generation of asexuals from sexual animals (virgin births), generation of SARS or HIV and many virus, incorporation of mitochondria by symbiosis, etc. they all fall into instantaneous biodiversity or speciation, not gradual one by RMNS mechanism.
Well why not direct me there rather than claim that you can't show me any evidence and as a defence then claim that you couldn't show me evidence of electrons, quarks etc.. either?
In website, I list bottlenect and Mito. Eves as evidences, I copy bottleneck in following:
The cheetah is one of the most amazing animals in the cat family. As the worlds fastest animal, it has been clocked at 110 kilometers per hour for short distances. In 1900, estimated 100,000 cheetahs were estimate worldwide and had, fallen to 30,000 by 1975. In 1997, only 9,000 C 12,000 cheetahs remained in Africa.
Blood samples taken from 50 cheetahs for genetic testing revealed they were genetically identical to each other. Electrophoretic studies have shown that cheetahs are monomorphic and homozygous at many loci, thereby lacking the 10-60% polymorphisms found in other species. Furthermore, skin graft experiments in cheetahs indicated a significant lack of variability at the major histocompatibility complex.
In another similar case, the pocket gopher lives in tunnels in the American west. Researchers at the University of California, Santa Cruz found out each Humboldt gopher accepted grafts of small skin patches from other members within its own species, whereas the Carmel Valley gophers did not. To test immune function of Humboldt gophers, the researchers grafted skin from Carmel Valley gophers onto Humboldt gophers that rejected the grafts. This result suggests a uniformity of the Humboldt gopher genome.
In biology textbooks, the bottleneck effect or genetic bottlenecks are considered as the result of environmental fluctuations. According to the theory, sudden reductions in population size can alter the resulting gene pools. In the recent past, with change in environmental condition, many individuals in these animals were killed and only a small number have survived. With the drastic reduction in their population, close relatives were forced to breed, and the cheetah became genetically inbred, meaning all cheetahs are closely related. Oddly, no explanation is available to elucidate why and how such kind events only selectively kill cheetahs and leave every other big cats alive to develop its expected genetic variation.
The proposed GMCMI provides an alternative explanation: in stead of mysterious events which only selectively killed only a few types of these animals, some of the animals might be new-evolved species, the plasticity of genetic structures in the animals are very poor, they are still identical and very close to the initial stage when they were created by Nature.
These findings are just accidental findings. Since evidences are hypothesis-driven research products, nobody has done anything so far with my hypothesis, it is understandable there are only a few evidences available.
So you are choosing to draw a clear distinction between Darwinism and modern evolutionary sciece?
No, modern ToE still holds Darwinian RMNS as major reason for speciation, that is absolutely wrong. But I am more sympathetic with Darwin, as he did not know genetics then, it is reasonably for him to make the mistake. Neo-Darwinism is different, they knew everything we know. With all genetic knowledge, there is no excuse still to think Darwinian RMNS as the mechanism.
So Darwin's original formulation has a number of errors and ommissions in the light of our current knowledge, but the basic theory is still as sound as it ever was.
Since Darwin's original formulation has a number of fatal errors and ommissions in the light of our current knowledge, and the basic theory is totally wrong.

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Wounded King, posted 05-09-2005 6:38 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by mick, posted 05-09-2005 1:48 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 05-09-2005 2:46 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied
 Message 165 by Wounded King, posted 05-10-2005 9:10 AM Jianyi Zhang has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 149 of 305 (206506)
05-09-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Jianyi Zhang
05-09-2005 1:17 PM


Jianyi writes:
In website, I list bottlenect and Mito. Eves as evidences
Jianyi's website writes:
According to the GMCMI model, every species have two Eves. The first one is the single ancestral mother, who gave birth to a new species, the second Eve or ‘Eves is a group of females with very similar genetically structure, who are the first generation or seed of new species. In terms of human, most likely, its ancestor or first Eve was one member of ape-like animals; the second Eves was a group of mothers with identical human genetic structure and phenotype.
hi Jianyi,
I don't understand about your theory of "Eves". How is this different to the theory of RMNS?
Best wishes,
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 1:17 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Jianyi Zhang, posted 05-09-2005 2:09 PM mick has replied

Jianyi Zhang
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 305 (206512)
05-09-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by mick
05-09-2005 1:48 PM


I don't understand about your theory of "Eves". How is this different to the theory of RMNS?
1) Speciation occurs at individual level, new species did not come as population at the beginning.
2) There is no NS involved at the creation, only gross random mutation is enough.

Jianyi Zhang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by mick, posted 05-09-2005 1:48 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by mick, posted 05-09-2005 7:03 PM Jianyi Zhang has replied

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