A statement of my disbeliefs

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Messages 14-17 are off-topic avatar chit-chat. ENOUGH!
Adminnemooseus

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It is interesting to observe that almost all posts in this thread are off topic and off target. But when Christians' tried to confront "General Krull" for his prejudicial assertion, he is dodging the issue and rudely telling them this is an atheist thread etcetera etcetera.This only proves to me that in this forum in the presence of moderators certain belief (atheist) can assault any faith recklessly without proving their claims. If I recall correctly it is called "Prejudice." Prejudice is an opinion without judgment, mind you that a judgment requires forensic and/or empirical evidence and due deliberation.On the other hand, General Krull has the gall to start a thread about religion using complete distortion and /or disinformation about Islaam. That proves nothing but the absolute ignorance of GK on the subject matter.May I ask that why this forum has this double standard? If you guys want to bash religions for the sake of bashing, please do that. I don't care about that.But if you want to use reason and logic and want to make your case by presenting evidence and/or facts (either way), then you must cease to suppress the dissent and allow the accused to confront you, especially of those whose religion is under assault by your prejudicial assertions.This thread is like "my way or no way."This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-27-2005 12:55 PM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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I noticed thaat you have only mentioned "Christians and Muslims", why? What about Jews, Hindus, or else? Why you have singled out two groups. Obviously you are denying Christian God and Muslim God, while acknowledging the God of others?
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Where am I acknowledging other gods? I have never read the religion works of Jews,Hindus or others and thus cannot comment on their claims. It's like asking to judge a cake I've never tasted.

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Interesting, show me the proof of God existance in Torah (your version) and we will take it from there? Because I believe I can prove otherwise to you, not that I believe that.
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I have never read the torah, it's an examplar.

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Then what are your qualifications and/or sources of knowledge for denying Muslims' God? How did you reach to this conclsuion that Muslims' God is a product of human mind?How do you define "God?"There is no concept of alleged "God" is Islaam, it is rather "Allaah." This shows that you cannot differentiate between "alleged" God and Allaah. I have also noticed and concluded that you are clueless of Islaam. Thereforem, my question is, how dare you speaks bluntly of issues you have no knowledge of?Can you present your evidence to me that Allaah does not exist or "God does not exist? Because mere denial is not a proof itself?What do you think are the sources of knowledge?Can you also tell me briefly about your background? I suspect that you have a Judeo-Christian back ground, but I may be wrong. It will give me a sense of reference that who I am dealing with.

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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It is interesting to observe that almost all posts in this thread are off topic and off target. But when Christians' tried to confront "General Krull" for his prejudicial assertion, he is dodging the issue and rudely telling them this is an atheist thread etcetera etcetera.

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How can it be prejudice to say that I've examined the christian religion and found it to be wanting and from the discussions I've had with muslims, the same would seem to apply to that?Where's the prejudice?

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This only proves to me that in this forum in the presence of moderators certain belief (atheist) can assault any faith recklessly without proving their claims

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Prove what? it's my own viewpoint? what am i suppose to be proving ? I'm not claiming you will all non-burn in non-existance for notime if you don't all become non-believers today!

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On the other hand, General Krull has the gall to start a thread about religion using complete distortion and /or disinformation about Islaam. That proves nothing but the absolute ignorance of GK on the subject matter.

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And in that thread I offered my apologies for my mistake.This message has been edited by General Krull, 27-Apr-2005 01:11 PM

Please calm down. Take another 24 hour break.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

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Please calm down. Take another 24 hour break.

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Will you please address the double standard?Checkmate wrote:

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May I ask that why this forum has this double standard? If you guys want to bash religions for the sake of bashing, please do that. I don't care about that.

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Nah, I'm the guy who pulls up along side 'ya and peers inside to see if everything's ok... and then runs into a tree.Does your comment mean, "I don't get it." ?Anyway, all I was trying to say is that, if God can't be proven via evidence, then there's no way to differentiate between God existing and God not existing. It means, what happens in your life, the feelings inside you, everything--it can fit a model of the world where God exists, and one where God does not.That's the great thing about faith--there's enough ambiguity there where you need to choose faith and stick to it no matter what. That's the whole point.And that's my point--the good thing about faith has nothing to do with the actual truth of the matter. The "actual truth" will never be independently verifiable. And it doesn't matter. Life is the way it is, regardless of proof or logic. The interpretation and faith is inside.That somehow sounds more confusing than ever. HONK HONK Thanks for answering my question. I knew you'd give me an answer that makes me smile, even though I already thought the same kind of answer to myself.Take care.

Greetings Charles Knight,Although your message is addressed to non-Christians, may I, a Christian, bump in, too?The reason I believe in God is, essentially, my fear of death and my desire to exist forever. I just can't accept for a split second that my existence will some day cease. I know it's not a scientific reason, and yet that's a kind of existential feeling I experience. I know that nothing in this physico-chemical universe is able to make me immortal, but God, Who is "above and beyond" the physico-chemical, can.Having said that, I must also say that I agree with many arguments of atheists. Indeed, it is very hard, if not plain impossible, to imagine such a huge, enormously powerful, all-transcending Being as God to be "upset" with someone, and, more generally, to be "personal" with humans. But, again, that's an existential feeling that I have since I was about 11-12 (note that I grew up in the former USSR, in an entirely atheist and often anti-theist environment).May I also ask: why do some people want to eliminate the concept of God from existence? I think that unless people begin to do horrible things for the sake of their vanity or insecurity, *believing*, very mistakenly, that they do it for the sake of God, the concept of God is not bad at all.Finally, I want to say that I believe in God Who believes in those who believe in him AND in those who do not. I believe that truly believing in God means to do good to other people, and that God will reward all who do that.Richard

All sounds very reasonable to me.

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May I also ask: why do some people want to eliminate the concept of God from existence?

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Dunno - as long as people don't try and force me to join in - I can't see it any of my business what people believe in.

But it does, Chas, if those in power control our lives by answering to a belief system out of contact with reality, i.e. Ron Reagan is supposed to have said 'I would have no hesitation in pressing the nuclear button as God will protect America'. Now it may be an urban legend or only partly quoted (I can`t find a source), but anyone who controls power on that level surely should be vetted for their beliefs long before they are granted that power.

So you admit thet your inability to deal with your own mortality is what causes you to grasp at the straw of religion !? Here you put your finger on the crux of the problem.People (in power) do evil things all the time in the name of some religion, thus reducing the value of religon in general for all mankind. More wars have been fought, and more injustices perpetrated, in the name of religion than for any other reason. Because it is such an effective mechanism for deceiving the uneducated.It can be so easily mis-used to mold the consciousness of people who have neither the intellect nor the motivation to think for themselves and seek rational scientific answers for the real-life phenonmenon they observe. (that can require some hard thinking, as opposed to the simplicity of blind belief in some dogma).And because it can be so easily used as political tool to manipulate the ignorant.

I don't believe there is any proof of a God.
I don't believe any is required: You either believe or you don't.
I don't believe it's that important.
I don't believe the Earth is 6 thousand years old.
I don't believe in the fall, the flood or anything else in the Pentateuch.
I don't believe an intelligent designer would fuck up so much.
I don't believe anybody who tells me they speak for God.
I don't believe science can provide all the answers, either. But most of all,
I don't believe I'm letting anyone pushing thier mythology as science anywhere near my daughter's classrooms.
I do believe, But:
I don't believe I could tell you why.
I don't believe I need to.

While this is true in at least some cases, the same thing can be said about every ideology and philosophy.I have known quite a few know-it-all atheists who really doesn't know crap about anything. I have also known some amazingly bright theists, some of which are the really big fish in the school I'm attending. Oh please, when dealing with the ignorant masses you can use just about anything to manipulate them. Neo-nazism comes to mind.The only reason religion is used to manipulate the ignorant masses more than anything else is because it is one of the few things that are still held by the overwhelming majority. Not too long ago, giving a public speech condeming interracial marriage would almost guarantee you a seat in congress. Nowadays, it is a political suicide to suggest such a thing.I suspect that, like racism, sexism, and hopefully homophobia (sometime in the near future hopefully), saying the word "god" in ever other sentence in your speech will be considered a political suicide in the future.Like racism, I want to see religion as a right for people to have but not something so mainstream that you absolutely have to follow it to have a chance at taking a public office.A recent poll I saw showed that about 80-90% of people said "absolutely no" when asked if they would vote for an atheist over a christian racist (or something like that, I can't remember exactly). It showed that the overwhelming majority of the people still do not trust non-religious people just like non-racists just 30 years ago.

One can only hope. I believe this to be currently true in the USA and probably in many Islamic theocracies.
However, it would probably not be the case in other devoloped countries such as Canada or France that have a more secular society and government.
I would prefer to see us emulate these societies to a greater degree, but its not going to happen any time soon.
This is because of the inter-generational persistence of religion.
Those of faith are typically very focussed on making sure their kids are programed to believe exactly as they do. Unfortunately, the latter seems to be the case in the US right now.
Both presidential candidates took every opportunity to demonstrate that they were 'men of faith'.
I found this disturbing, personally.
I don't care what they believe, but they shouldn't feel compelled to advertise it to be considered eligible leaders by the populace.
You can see how this might be expected to raise some animosity among atheists toward the religious right.
These people mis-trust others for the wrong reasons, and fail to mis-trust a lot of people that they should mistrust, simply because of stated religious beliefs.This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-11-2005 05:30 AM

I know with this post i won't be doing a whole lot, an belief is hard to change.The fact of the matter is, 'atheism' has no real stance because there is overwhelming evidence to disprove the idea of no intelligent designer, whether it be any spiritual being known to man. It is extremely obvious that there is an intelligent designer, and through my studies it has pointed to the God described by Christianity, and there are evidence to prove that as well.Either way, many 'atheists' hide behind the veil of science when more times than not, science is disproving atheism.
Please consider my statementDan

Perhaps if you wish people to consider your statements, as anything other than a personal statement of faith, you might provide some of the overwhelming evidence you refer to. If so you should probably open a new thread.TTFN,WK