homosexuality

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Originally posted by gene90:
You forgot to attack my church.

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He's getting to that.

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Originally posted by mark24:

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She, I think you'll find!

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Mark

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It's hard to tell over a cable.

Originally posted by mark24:Perhaps I should have asked, WHY should they deny their phenotype, when they are harming no-one?Because to a theist sex for pleasure is evil and dirty and a sin and thus must be denied to one's self. You know the so-called Original Sin nonsense.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-26-2002]

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
--False

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Yes, you're beliefs are false. It is a major teaching that sex for pleasure is a sin. It is only the heretic sects which say otherwise. [This message has been edited by nos482, 10-29-2002]

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
KJV - Proverbs 5
18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

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--Erotic enough for you? Sexual pleasures are most welcome while in the confines of marriage. Your usage of 'theist' as others pointed out to you, was also a problem.

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Is this pre or post Ausgustian? After Ausgustine the Church took a very dim view on any sex for pleasure at all.1 My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding: 2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge. 3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: 4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword. 5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. 6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them. 7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. 8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: 9 Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel: 10 Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger; 11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed, 12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; 13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! 14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. 15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. 16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. 17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. 18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. 19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. 20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? 21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings. 22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins. 23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.Old Russian proverb; "If your neighbor has a goat and you don't, don't be jealous, kill the goat.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-30-2002]

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Is there a book-chapt-verse you'd like to attribute to your quote?

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--N/M - didn't take enough time to read the quote, I would put emphasis on the segment I cited in my last post.

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Augustine was a primary theological shaper of thought and went so far as to argue that sex was sinful even within wedlock unless the specific purpose was always conception!How Sex Was Made A Sin

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
And? The guy was an Italian missionary in the 500's, & thusly does not exactly have the final word as to whether his biblical interpretation is correct or not.

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That would be Saint Augustine, so his opinion does carries some weight. And Christianity does frown on sex for pleasure for the most part now.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-31-2002]

Originally posted by Quetzal:Couldn't agree more - that's actually the evolutionary explanation for why sex is so enjoyable . We can observe the use of sex - both literal and figurative, and both homo- and heterosexuality - in our nearest cousins where it very much serves to maintain, strengthen, or occasionally determine, social bonds.Yes, there is a good example of this in the "wild" with Bonobos(sp) chimps. They've completely separated sex from reproduction and use it as we would a handshake to greet each other. They "practice" almost every form of sexuality with very few taboos (no sex between mothers and sons over a certain age, etc). They are also the only known primates which haven't been known to commit murder from what I understand.[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-31-2002]

Originally posted by schrafinator:Oh, so now the broad paintbrush has been reduced to a narrower one by the admission that only the Chistian groups not included in your "heretic sects" consider sex for pleasure wrong.

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nos, I mean this with all earnestness; please work on being less sloppy in your debating.

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The idea is to be intelligent and fair and to stick with the evidence.

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You all-too easily slip into a "All you religious people are a bunch of dumb poo poo heads" style of posting which is childish and diminishes the otherwise general very high quality of discourse around here.

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You and I are often agree on the issues, but I find myself wishing you weren't on "our" side, because of how snide and condescending and downright sloppy you can be, and often are.

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And while I'm at it maybe you should work on your sense of humour as well.

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
--The only way your argument would carry sufficient merit, would be to include Augustine's interpretive bible cementations within a specific Christian denomination. By living in the 500's, he played no part in forming initial scriptural documents. Keep in mind my scriptural quote (it is rare you get quotes of scripture from me, you don't find me in the bible forums), was that not erotic enough as to imply pleasure from satisfaction? Your argument requires that this not be present, also, feel free to read Song of Solomon unless its too 'juicy' for you.

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He had great influence in doctrine in the Church. You are quoting from the OT and many Christians assert that the NT superceeds the OT. The fact remains that most of modern Christianity is sexually repressed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:We weren't talking about me.[/B][/QUOTE]Maybe you should have had a look at the end of that post with heretic sects. It had a at the end.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:We weren't talking about me.[/B][/QUOTE]Maybe you should have had a look at the end of that post with heretic sects. It had a at the end.[/B][/QUOTE]Oh, I noticed the smiley-face.I am just not willing to be disarmed or distracted by it at the moment.[/B][/QUOTE]You are taking it way too seriously.

I don't know for sure, but I have never come accross any research that demonstrates any animal having sex for purely pleasurable motives. Even the bonobo monkies are have sex to reduce group aggression not because it just feels good.Bonobos aren't monkeys. They are primates like us.

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by nos482:
Bonobos aren't monkeys. They are primates like us.

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LOL....!!!

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The term 'primate' includes great apes, lesser apes, old-world monkeys, new-world monkeys, lorises, and lemurs. There were also little mouse-like primates contempory with the dinosaurs, and many extinct critters between then and now.

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The distinction you want is "Bonobos aren't monkeys, they are apes-- great apes no less."

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That is what I had said, like us. And out of all of the chimps they are the closestly related to us as well. Monkeys have long tails.Don't think that you have to make it your duty to be contrary to me.[This message has been edited by nos482, 11-02-2002]

Bonk, bonk, bonk.....