International Aspects of Creationism/ID

One of the thing I liked about Europe is that it always seemed a bit secular, and one could have conversations about scientific issues of evolution without someone asking why the apes were still around. Indeed most Europeans I knew got a bit snobby and said creationism was just a US problem.Unfortunately there were growing signs of an evangelical seige of Europe (and Netherlands in specific) over the last few years, and finally it appears the ramparts have been breached. In the Netherlands a headmaster of a school was upset that any teacher would advocate evolution. This came as a shock to the teachers, and he has agreed to stay away from the school to let things "cool off."According to him... Is this happening anywhere else in the world, and is it a growing trend? If so, is there a reason to be concerned and more action taken by those who support science over a return to mysticism (or earlier scientific practices)?

Where was the thread? I looked first and didn't see one, and I just looked again and still didn't see one. Was it an actual thread or a subthread?

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I find this interesting as Ireland seems gripped by religious issues. Is there a difference say between the Catholics and Protestants on this, or is it really as a whole, creationism is rejected?

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

As much as I personally dislike religion, I think this is unfair.As long as there is hubris and a willingness to believe in the absolute truth (knowledge) of the "betterness" one's position, there will always be the danger of ignorance dominating over education.The atheist is just as open to such error, and the pious are not inherently more vulnerable.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Hume would find it ridiculous and skewered much of the philosophy behind ID and Creationism centuries ago. He'd probably ask why people are still considering such philosophizing as valid. I'd agree.Besides Hume and me, who are the world's greatest thinkers? Heheheh. Hijack my thread will ya?

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

It suffers even more as science does not appear to be part of his knowledge base. I'm not sure why you think its an improvement on US stuff, as most of it appealed to US sources.In any case, thanks for the info. Now I get to torture my dutch gf with evidence for more lame-os over here.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh I didn't mean to suggest that, and I should say my comment to you was supposed to be tongue in cheek. I viewed it as the same old same old.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

It turns out the Dutch Minister of Education recently stated that evolution is an incomplete theory and that there needs to be a debate regarding its stature, suggesting that Intelligent Design theory is an equal replacement theory. She also lamented the divide between religion and science (which is interesting since if she actually knew what ID was then she should not be admitting that intention so publicly).So it appears that the IDists are beginning to decloak in the Netherlands and get the wedge strategy working.Unlike the US program, the Dutch offensive appears to be backfiring. Almost everyone, including her own Xian party members, have responded negatively, stating politicians should stay out of science completely, and to leave it up to scientists to work such things out.They said there isn't really an interest, much less a need, for debate on that topic.Ahhhhhhhhh... the netherlands stays on track for now.This message has been edited by holmes, 05-23-2005 11:57 AM

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I just had a major shock. When the MP wanted to introduce ID to debate I thought that was to be a wedge to get it into dutch schools. I was mistaken.Today I learned that in fact, it IS CUMPULSORY TO LEARN CREATIONISM AS AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY TO EVOLUTION in Dutch schools. Holy Katzenjammers!That's right, Creationism is mandated by law here as a valid alternative in Biology.Interestingly enough, the MPs attempt to get ID into debate has, as some ministers have put it, "woken a sleeping dog". Now MPs are beginning discussions to remove Creationism and teach only evolution.Me and my gf found this very shocking, and strange as she has no memory of ever learning Creationism in her biology class. But anyway, I guess Holland is a picture of what the US could be if Creationists had their way... still most people believe in evolution.Their National Institute of Biology is backing the move to drop Creationism, and not interested in pursuing ID either.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Yes, I was glad about the reaction her statements got and while I am still disturbed to find out Creationism is legally mandated, I am also glad to see that MPs are interested in removing that anchronism.Do you know much about that legislation? When it came about and why it can be taught differently between schools?My gf says the only thing she was taught was that it used to be believed in until evidence accumulated which made evolution the best scientific theory. Thus it was mentioned only as a negative in her school.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Then the Dutch'd only have to get rid of Balkenende and Verdonk, the law requiring IDs be carried at all times, and the healthcare reform laws slated to come into play in 2006 and the nation will really be moving back toward a bright future.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)