Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   International Aspects of Creationism/ID
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 79 (208181)
05-14-2005 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
05-14-2005 6:45 PM


Re: to no one in particular
I think they would be appauled at the vast gulf between our knowledge and our wisdom, they would be appauled at the manipulative tactics the media uses for both sides, and they would be appauled at the lack of critical, objective thinking going on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 6:45 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 6:59 PM Limbo has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 79 (208183)
05-14-2005 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Limbo
05-14-2005 6:18 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
I will also remember that "religious experiences" can be manufactured.
see Holy visions
and look for the yellow motorcycle helmut.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 6:18 PM Limbo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by mick, posted 05-14-2005 7:09 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 79 (208186)
05-14-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Limbo
05-14-2005 6:54 PM


Re: to no one in particular
aren't you assuming that they could recognize such a lack in us while suddenly being subjected to all the knowledge that has been {accumulated\dicovered} since their time?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 6:54 PM Limbo has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 34 of 79 (208190)
05-14-2005 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Limbo
05-14-2005 6:18 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
Hi Limbo,
Limbo writes:
quote:
Your personal experience is generally better evidence than anything a prosecutor could provide you with.
Remember that next time a Christian says their own spiritual experiences about God are better evidence than anything a scientist could provide them with.
yes, I see the point you are making. I hope you don't feel like you're being wrongly accused of a crime just because you believe in God. that would be awful.
But you might want to imagine that you were wrongfully accused of a crime, which you KNOW that you didn't do, but can't prove.
Your first step should be to try to find witnesses. i see this all the time here in Canada, you walk past a lamppost and there is a handwritten notice saying "Did you see a car crash here at 3.30 pm on Wednesday? if so, please contact..."
The sad fact is that, if you can't find witnesses, then you WILL go to jail.
The problem for you is that the scientific method always provides better witnesses than are provided by religious adherents, simply because under science, anybody can be a witness. Anybody can repeat the experiment, and turn themselves into a witness. But not anybody can go out for themselves and prove the existence of God. This inevitably makes religion the loser on any evidence-based trial.
This isn't intended to gloat - you make a very fair point. I'm not sure I know the answer to it. But I truly hope that you don't feel persecuted like a wrongly accused criminal or anything like that, just because of your beliefs.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 6:18 PM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 7:21 PM mick has replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 35 of 79 (208194)
05-14-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by RAZD
05-14-2005 6:56 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
LOL!
Well, you could use this
Or you could just drop a tab of acid for an even better effect...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 6:56 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 7:13 PM mick has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 79 (208197)
05-14-2005 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mick
05-14-2005 7:09 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
hey, you're talking to someone who walked the Haight Ashbury district when the Doors were unknown.
and I got the posters to prove it ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mick, posted 05-14-2005 7:09 PM mick has not replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 79 (208201)
05-14-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by mick
05-14-2005 7:03 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
quote:
yes, I see the point you are making. I hope you don't feel like you're being wrongly accused of a crime just because you believe in God. that would be awful.
Thank you, Mick. To answer your question, no I dont feel like Im being accused of a legal crime yet, but I do feel as if I am being accused of an intellectual crime, mainly my distrust of the scientific community.
I worry that in the far distant future, if Darwinians win, it could indeed become a crime to be religious.
By the same token, I worry that if organized religion wins, it could be illegal NOT to.
Both are unacceptable, and both sides must work together to prevent either outcome. Balance is the only path that preserves freedom.
This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-14-2005 07:23 PM
This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-14-2005 07:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by mick, posted 05-14-2005 7:03 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by mick, posted 05-14-2005 7:28 PM Limbo has replied
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 7:49 PM Limbo has replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 38 of 79 (208204)
05-14-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Limbo
05-14-2005 7:21 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
Sounds right to me. i wouldn't worry about darwinists criminalising religion though - they are too interested in studying it to get rid of it! Biologists want to protect endangered species! I promise you won't be criminalised, but you may be put into a zoo and mated randomly.
Mick
This message has been edited by mick, 05-14-2005 07:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 7:21 PM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 7:31 PM mick has not replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 79 (208207)
05-14-2005 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mick
05-14-2005 7:28 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
Hmm...an up-side

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mick, posted 05-14-2005 7:28 PM mick has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 40 of 79 (208212)
05-14-2005 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Limbo
05-14-2005 7:21 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
I worry that in the far distant future, if Darwinians win, it could indeed become a crime to be religious.
By the same token, I worry that if organized religion wins, it could be illegal NOT to.
legitimate.
but I don't think all religions can be 'ruled out' by darwinism: there are a lot of deeply religious people that have no problem with evolutions mechanisms, because they aren't "wedded" to any specific creation belief.
and I don't see it becoming a "crime" to believe whatever you want. you may get held up for ridicule (aka flat-earthers), but we all get that to some extent eh?
and on that note I will also say that I think the YEC position is fast becoming the next 'flat-earth' position as the evidence becomes more and more solid that life on earth is old.
see my thread on {age correlations and an old earth}
EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part II.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 7:21 PM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 10:03 PM RAZD has replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 79 (208237)
05-14-2005 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
05-14-2005 7:49 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
quote:
but I don't think all religions can be 'ruled out' by darwinism: there are a lot of deeply religious people that have no problem with evolutions mechanisms, because they aren't "wedded" to any specific creation belief.
Maybe not, but they could eventually be ruled out by pure unchallenged philosophical naturalism...the father of secular religions and dogma. So which will it be? Naturalism, in which we have no soul, no destiny, no cosmic karma, no essence, no spark?
Or some kind of dualism, in which we are more than just the sum of our earthly parts?
In the end, we can't have both.
This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-14-2005 10:08 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 7:49 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 10:07 PM Limbo has replied
 Message 53 by nator, posted 05-15-2005 9:38 AM Limbo has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 42 of 79 (208238)
05-14-2005 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Limbo
05-14-2005 10:03 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
look at my sig and see if you can be a little more inclusive of your fellow humans.
science cannot eliminate what it cannot know. the most it could possibly insist on is professional agnosticism.
but smoke all you want in private.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 10:03 PM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 10:10 PM RAZD has replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 79 (208239)
05-14-2005 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
05-14-2005 10:07 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
So, do you believe you have a soul, RAZD? What do you believe happens after death?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 10:07 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 10:15 PM Limbo has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 44 of 79 (208242)
05-14-2005 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Limbo
05-14-2005 10:10 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
that one becomes one with the being that is not being?
do all animals have souls? or is there a quantum soulon and different beings get different quantities? do all the soulons combined reconstitute god?
I don't believe you can know. that the only evidence is what you can know from this universe in this life.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 10:10 PM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Limbo, posted 05-14-2005 10:25 PM RAZD has replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 79 (208246)
05-14-2005 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
05-14-2005 10:15 PM


Re: A second thought experiment
Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that Deism is based on the belief that the universe was created by a God who then made no further intervention in its affairs, like the "Divine Watchmaker" who created a mechanism so perfect as to be self-regulating. Im not sure how the Zen part factors in.
I mean, you say "I don't believe you can know." but I would expect to hear that from an agnostic.
This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-14-2005 10:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 10:15 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 10:37 PM Limbo has replied
 Message 48 by RAZD, posted 05-14-2005 11:36 PM Limbo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024