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Author Topic:   Is God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence?
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 1 of 5 (207492)
05-12-2005 4:46 PM


I've noticed that there are at least few here who seem to subscribe to this view. It was crashfrog that pointed out some claim that God does not allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated, because to do so would eliminate the need for faith.
While I agree with the concept that some aspects of God are currently beyond our ability to directly experience, I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence. Furthermore, I don't think that simply believing that God exists necessarilly equals having faith in him.
In short, my question is:
Do you think God is (or is not) determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence?
Whichever way you answer, I would like to also hear why you think this. I will interject my thoughts from my own Judeo-Christian perspective and also attempt to explain why I think God is actually determined to allow proof and evidence of his existence -- and why thinking that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence is probably a major error in our thinking based on our own limited experiences.
Although this discusion is primarilly targetted against the idea of God conceiling himself so as to generate "faith", I do believe that this discussion also has relevance to the whole "intelligent design" discusion as well. In addition to this, I welcome input from other faith systems that are not considered Judeo-Christian, including thoughts about God (or gods) from pantheistic, panentheisitic, agnostic or even other monotheistic faiths that I may not be aware of outside the scope of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-12-2005 04:52 PM
This message has been editted from it's original format.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-14-2005 09:33 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminBen, posted 05-13-2005 12:21 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 5 (207597)
05-13-2005 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
05-12-2005 4:46 PM


Is this discussion limited to the Judeo-Christian God? If so, can you state that explicitly in your post?
As I see it, this is a "Faith and Belief" topic. If you want to limit this to a Judeo-Christian God, then you might want this to go into the "Bible Study" forum. But if you did that, you'd be cutting off responses from people who can't support their ideas with bible verses.
Once you clarify these things, I think we should be good to go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 05-12-2005 4:46 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 05-13-2005 9:07 PM AdminBen has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 3 of 5 (207902)
05-13-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminBen
05-13-2005 12:21 AM


AdminBen writes:
Is this discussion limited to the Judeo-Christian God?
No. Discussions related to other faith systems would be welcome.
I guess the initial inspiration behind my posting this came explicitly from my confusion related to any Christian believer that would hold that God would be deliberately obscure so as to generate "faith" in himself.
AdminBen writes:
If so, can you state that explicitly in your post?
No problem. I'll go back and make this known in the original post.
AdminBen writes:
As I see it, this is a "Faith and Belief" topic. If you want to limit this to a Judeo-Christian God, then you might want this to go into the "Bible Study" forum.
Actually, "Faith & Belief" would be fine.
AdminBen writes:
But if you did that, you'd be cutting off responses from people who can't support their ideas with bible verses.
Faith & Belief is ok with me -- although, when speaking from my own faith perspective, I'll most likely be discussing from the angle of church tradition and sacred scripture.
The discussion will not be focussed on whether one can prove God exists. Rather, whether or not God wants others know he exists or not -- specifically, an investigation into the claim that God does not allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated, because to do so would eliminate the need for faith.
AdminBen writes:
Once you clarify these things, I think we should be good to go.
Ok. I'll go back to the OP and make the appropriate changes.
Edit: Do you have any suggestions as to how I could state these thoughts more clearly?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-13-2005 09:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminBen, posted 05-13-2005 12:21 AM AdminBen has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 4 of 5 (208146)
05-14-2005 6:08 PM


AdminBen, just for clarification, this is the revised original post:
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I've noticed that there are at least few here who seem to subscribe to this view. It was crashfrog that pointed out some claim that God does not allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated, because to do so would eliminate the need for faith.
While I agree with the concept that some aspects of God are currently beyond our ability to directly experience, I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence. Furthermore, I don't think that simply believing that God exists necessarilly equals having faith in him.
In short, my question related to God's existence is related to two complementary positions:
Do you think God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence -- or do you think that God is determined to allow ample proof or evidence of his existence?
Whichever way you answer, I would like to also hear why you think this. I will interject my thoughts from my own Judeo-Christian perspective and also attempt to explain why I think God is actually determined to allow proof and evidence of his existence -- and why thinking that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence is probably a major error in our thinking based on our own limited experiences.
Although this discusion is primarilly targetted against the idea of God conceiling himself so as to generate "faith", I do believe that this discussion also has relevance to the whole "intelligent design" discusion as well.
In addition to this, I welcome input from other faith systems that are not considered Judeo-Christian, including thoughts about God (or gods) from pantheistic, panentheisitic, agnostic or even other monotheistic faiths that I may not be aware of outside the scope of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I would also welcome any atheistic perspectives on this matter.
Is this ok for submission?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-14-2005 06:16 PM
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-14-2005 07:36 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AdminBen, posted 05-14-2005 11:09 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 5 (208260)
05-14-2005 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
05-14-2005 6:08 PM


Sorry, I was out for a couple of days. Thanks for the changes, and for waiting. It looks good to me.
I'll move this to "Faith and Belief" now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 05-14-2005 6:08 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

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