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Author Topic:   The Chicken And Egg Problem, this problem refers to all species
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 31 of 43 (207768)
05-13-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
05-13-2005 9:32 AM


Rock on. See you 'round.

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 32 of 43 (207771)
05-13-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nitai
05-13-2005 1:32 PM


OOOOH, now things are starting to get interesting!
Most of the people who come on this forum trashing "Darwinism" are of the conservative Christian type, with a few noteworthy exceptions. Pray tell, what is your persuasion? We might have a more productive discussion if you'd come out and say what you're arguing for, instead of just attacking various points of evo theory. Indulge me!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 05-13-2005 3:51 PM zephyr has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 33 of 43 (207847)
05-13-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by zephyr
05-13-2005 1:43 PM


Judging by the username, and the email (avadhutaraya), I would take a wild swing at some kind of Hindu or Krsna follower.

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 34 of 43 (207860)
05-13-2005 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
05-13-2005 3:51 PM


Don't they say humans have been around 100My?

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 05-13-2005 7:38 PM zephyr has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 35 of 43 (207872)
05-13-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by zephyr
05-13-2005 4:28 PM


I'm not sure. I don't know if there is anything so concrete in Hindu texts but I haven't studied them. According to this We are in the 51st Brahma year and one Brahma year is 8.64 billion human years. From the site:
quote:
Current scientific estimates of the age of the universe range from 7 billion to 20 billion years. By contrast, the Hindu theory calls for a universe more than 150 billion years old.
Though I can not vouch for the accuracy of the site...we'll just have to wait for Nitai to tell us all.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 43 (207884)
05-13-2005 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jianyi Zhang
05-11-2005 9:42 AM


is this
http://chickensfirst.net (you had a ";" instead of the ":")
your site (presumably you are the author of the book it references)?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 43 (207890)
05-13-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by zephyr
05-13-2005 4:28 PM


try this site for some information on Hindu Creationism
Creationism: The Hindu View
It seems to be that they would be looking at the 'brane theory and finding a lot of correlations
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 43 (207891)
05-13-2005 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Modulous
05-13-2005 4:47 PM


there is disagreement on that actual numbers (just like fundies numbers) but the implication is of vast age and recurring rebirth of universes
another site you might want to look at is
Angelfire - error 410
funny that one group says too old, another says too young.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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 Message 39 by AdminNosy, posted 05-13-2005 8:42 PM RAZD has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 39 of 43 (207900)
05-13-2005 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
05-13-2005 7:42 PM


T o p i c !
This is a long,long way off topic.
Please get back to the egg or the chicken or whatever.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 40 of 43 (207901)
05-13-2005 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by AdminNosy
05-13-2005 8:42 PM


Re: T o p i c !
obviously the first chicken came from an egg, because eggs existed before chickens did.
where the first egg came from is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure enough information exists to begin to make even a less than educated guess.
especially when it is so loosely defined in the OP: are bacteria included? yeasts? fungi?
btw -- it's about time we had a Hindu Creationist to add some balance, and I think it is fair to educate people on what their beliefs involve.
fair enough?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 41 of 43 (207903)
05-13-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nitai
05-11-2005 4:52 AM


welcome
btw, welcome to the fray Nitai. I hope you find more time to visit.
one of the posters suggests that you are a follower of Hindu or Krishna beliefs ... is this true?
if so, doubly welcome. most creationists we get here are of the christian or muslim faiths, and it is welcome to have a contrasting viewpoint.
enjoy.

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Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5740 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 42 of 43 (207971)
05-14-2005 4:44 AM


I always thought that the "Chicken and the Egg Problem" was a way of starting an evolution vs creation argument.
Evolutionist: The egg came first. The thing that laid it was not quite a chicken.
Creationist: The chicken came first. The first was created by God in the garden of Eden.
Ding ding! Round One!

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5144 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 43 of 43 (208343)
05-15-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
05-13-2005 8:59 PM


The evolution of oogamy
Since RazD has raised a question of some actual consequence,
I am lured back into this thread.
An 'egg' in the strict biological sense, is a single germ cell with the capacity to give rise to an embryo.
However, with the exception of mammals and a few fish where development is nurtured internally by the female, the egg also contains all the resources necessary for embryological development of an entire new multicellular organism.
The biological condition of egg production is termed 'oogamy'.
It doesn't matter whether it is sexually or asexually produced, but it must contain sufficient resources for completed embrylogical development if it is laid freely in the environment, so many other forms of dispersed propagule (say a fungal spore) do not qualify because they require external inputs of energy for developmenting into a multicelluar organism.
However, I would contend that the evolution of the egg was contingent on the evolution of sexual reproduction first, even though some lineages secondarily lost sexuality and evolved eggs that could develop successfully without fertilization.
The evolution of sexuality probably began with the fusion of gametes of equal size (isogamy), but the emergence of the 'male' stragey of producing the smallest possible gametes resulted in the countering 'female' strategy of investing sufficient resources in each to ensure the survival of the zygote, regardless of the sperm containing virtually zero resources.
As I stated in another thread:
EZ writes:
Ever since the strategy of "maleness" evolved... it has been one of "produce the most gametes possible with the least investment in each". This enables the production of more and more gametes by putting fewer and fewer resources in each. While this might seem like a form of genetic parasitism (it is), it cannot displace the female strategy because really small gamates must fuse with a large one to produce a viable zygote. So we must keep in mind that the success of males in producing "cheap sperm" was also the driving force behind the evolution of truly female characters - few large eggs with all the cytoplasmic resources necesssary for embryo development.

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