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Author Topic:   A personal question
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 160 of 193 (20727)
10-24-2002 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by nator
10-23-2002 11:09 PM


[QUOTE][B](Wait a minute...I'm talking to a young man in his early twenties, and I am telling him that there is more to life than hormones...what am I thinking?)[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Hey Schraf, how much LOWER do you intend to stoop? True I had respect for you but a few more remarks like that and it's going to be flying out the window.
Maybe you should run along and start harrassing someone else over their personal beliefs and their age...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 11:09 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 10-24-2002 11:05 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 161 of 193 (20728)
10-24-2002 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by nator
10-23-2002 11:06 PM


[QUOTE][B]Lots of Christianity-based sodomy laws out there which technically affect married couples as well as gay men.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I don't think the government has a right to pass laws about sexual practices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 11:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by nator, posted 10-24-2002 11:07 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 166 of 193 (20733)
10-24-2002 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by nator
10-23-2002 10:40 PM


[QUOTE][B]I already addressed your war analogy.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Then see the hazing/initiation analogy.
[QUOTE][B]I said that the bonds of war happen because people are coming together to fight a common foe, not simply because shooting occurs.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
So your position is that if people in war weren't getting killed those bonds would be just as strong?
[QUOTE][B]So, are you saying that your morals are relatively arbitrary[/QUOTE]
[/B]
All morals are arbitrary because everyone at some point decides their own.
[QUOTE][B]and even though you think that homosexuality doesn't harm anyone, it is still immoral, because the Bible says so?
Then I would say that your position lacks reason.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
That's fine for your personal opinion but what basis do you have that my position lacks reason because (you assume) that it is based upon the Bible? How are your atheistic morals any better than my theistic morals? You're also begging the question when you simply equate Bible = lack of reason.
(And incidentally, I haven't even read the Bible for this moral perspective. Does that make it any difference? Because I think my moral values are correct, and I think the reason is obvious...so obvious in fact I don't *need* scriptures for it)
[QUOTE][B]no matter how illogical and unreasonable it is?[/QUOTE]
[/B]
We'll discuss that after you prove it is "illogical" and "unreasonable".
[QUOTE][B]I certainly did. [/QUOTE]
[/B]
Yeah but that doesn't surprise. After all, you clearly have an axe to grind. I've seen evidence of that time and again.
[QUOTE][B] (Homophobia might be too strong a word for your views, I'm not sure.)[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Yet another cheap shot.
Again, I ask the question: how low are you going to stoop?
I have another question: is the rest of this post even worth responding to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 10:40 PM nator has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 167 of 193 (20734)
10-24-2002 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by John
10-24-2002 4:16 PM


[QUOTE][B]Actually, if I recall correctly, I said "not that harmful"[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Actually what you said in Post 115 of this thread was:
[QUOTE][B] Homosexuality could be due to the extreme similarity of the sexes. It could be that it provides some positive social bonding. It could be that it simply isn't harmful.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Which is patently false. Sex, whether hetero or homo, can very well be harmful.
[QUOTE][B]The same right you have to accept it and to defend it.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
So then do you have a right to harrass Mormons on the street? Or wouldn't that be religious intolerance? Would you drive up to a gas station, and if you saw a Christian fish on a vehicle there, confront the driver about his religious preferences and tell him about how unreasonable he is?
[QUOTE][B]Morality is subjective.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Then what right have you to criticize my moral values?
[QUOTE][B]And it makes no sense. It is a worldview based on nothing.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Only if you presuppose there is no God, just as I presuppose there is.
[QUOTE][B]The logic involved is the same logic you yourself criticise when dealing with creationists.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
The logic I criticize dealing with Creationists is the same logic I criticize coming from atheists, only they push different ideaologies with it. I've debated both, and the arguments are often almost identical.
"There's no transitional fossils!"
"There's no evidence of God!"
[This message has been edited by gene90, 10-24-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by John, posted 10-24-2002 4:16 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 6:54 PM gene90 has not replied
 Message 176 by John, posted 10-25-2002 11:57 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 168 of 193 (20735)
10-24-2002 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by nos482
10-24-2002 4:47 PM


[QUOTE][B]What if the family believes that siblings should marry to "keep the bloodline pure"?[/QUOTE]
[/B]
If they are of legal age, what's the problem?
[QUOTE][B]Are you saying that this is ok[/QUOTE]
[/B]
No, I never said that existing abuse laws should be nulled. But I think that gov't shouldn't require teaching of logic or interfere with parent's teaching their kids whatever religion they want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 4:47 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 7:00 PM gene90 has replied
 Message 175 by compmage, posted 10-25-2002 3:25 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 169 of 193 (20736)
10-24-2002 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by nos482
10-24-2002 8:21 AM


[QUOTE][B]I remember, on another board, when this topic came up someone posted a set of guidelines from the 19th century for newlyweds on how the bride could avoid having sex with her new husband. It would have been quite funny if they weren't truly serious about it.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
What's wrong with it? If your wife doesn't want to have sex and you force her into, that's rape. It's not different from if you did that to your next-door neighbor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 8:21 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 7:05 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 177 of 193 (20839)
10-25-2002 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by John
10-25-2002 11:57 AM


[QUOTE][B]Ok. Everything has some degree of danger to it. I don't see that homosexuality is any more dangerous than heterosexuality or, say, driving a car on a daily basis, or working a high stress job. [/QUOTE]
[/B]
And I agree. I don't think a monogamous homosexual relationship is more dangerous than monogamous hetero.
[QUOTE][B]Gene, in any other arena, would you believe something for which there is no evidence?[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Actually I believe I have highly subjective evidence that there is a God, but you would just say that I've found a way to release endorphins on demand. Nos would put it in a much less charitable way.
In any other arena is a bit loaded. In science? No because everything in science is physical and must leave some sort of evidence. Well maybe, I believe there is *probably* some extraterrestrial life in the universe but with no evidence...although some would argue probability is on my side therefore it does not count.
In religion? If I were not a theist I would still have to accept the possibility rather than just to decide one day there is no God.
By the way I'm not sure there's no *historical* evidence for God either but I'm not going to mess with that yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by John, posted 10-25-2002 11:57 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by John, posted 10-26-2002 10:07 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 178 of 193 (20841)
10-25-2002 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by nator
10-24-2002 11:07 PM


[QUOTE][B]Between consenting adults, right?[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Of course. I recognize that slavery still exists, even in Europe and parts of the US.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by nator, posted 10-24-2002 11:07 PM nator has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 179 of 193 (20842)
10-25-2002 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by compmage
10-25-2002 3:25 AM


[QUOTE][B]The fact that I consider force-feeding a child religion damaging and abusive[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I don't see any evidence of that. And ultimately the child grows up and makes his own decisions. In fact a lot of our resident atheists started out like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by compmage, posted 10-25-2002 3:25 AM compmage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by nator, posted 10-29-2002 9:56 AM gene90 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 180 of 193 (20843)
10-25-2002 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by nos482
10-24-2002 7:05 PM


[QUOTE][B]That isn't the issue here. It is not about rape or force, it is about discouraging sex for pleasure. The bride is being told to hate sex and only to have it in order to reproduce and not take any pleasure in it at all.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Your message implied it only told the bride how to avoid having sex if she did not want to have sex.
You did not say it discouraged sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 7:05 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by nos482, posted 10-25-2002 8:58 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 181 of 193 (20844)
10-25-2002 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by nos482
10-24-2002 7:00 PM


[QUOTE][B]I see that you know nothing of genetics.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I didn't say that inbreeding does not have negative consequences, I said that people have a right to marry whoever they want.
[QUOTE][B]Many religions teach "spare the rod and spoil the child" to mean that children should be beatened to keep them moral and obedient.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I personally don't have an opinion on that so this comment has fallen upon deaf ears.
[QUOTE][B]Plus, there are so-called Christian "scientists" who let their children die horrible deaths because they believe that all they need to do is pray to their god to heal them.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
That's legal in Canada?
Here in the US I believe that would fall under our child neglect laws.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 7:00 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by nos482, posted 10-25-2002 9:10 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 182 of 193 (20845)
10-25-2002 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by nator
10-24-2002 11:05 PM


Sorry then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 10-24-2002 11:05 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by nator, posted 10-29-2002 9:58 AM gene90 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 184 of 193 (20851)
10-25-2002 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by nos482
10-25-2002 8:58 PM


[QUOTE][B]It is basically the same thing in this context[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I think there is a significant difference in teaching a woman ways to avoid being raped and trying to convince her that sex is bad.
If it is the same in that context then you have failed to convey it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by nos482, posted 10-25-2002 8:58 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by nos482, posted 10-25-2002 9:11 PM gene90 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 187 of 193 (20854)
10-25-2002 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by nos482
10-25-2002 9:10 PM


[QUOTE][B]No, they don't have the right to marry whomever they want. It is a privilege that is why you have to get a licence to make it legal.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I'm sorry, WHAT did you just say?
[QUOTE][B]You can't legally marry your pet, your close blood relations, etc...[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Persons of the same sex?
[QUOTE][B]You would have the government (law) mind its own business in this sort of situation.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
But not to that extent. I believe in anti-abuse laws and you're putting words in my mouth.
But you think marriage is not a right? And you also believe government can say WHO you can marry? And you have been arguing with me over homosexuality? You're more conservative than I am!
[QUOTE][B]So, you approve of beating children as a form of "discipline"? Just recently an elderly woman, from a local Christian cult, was convicted of using excessive force on 5 children in their group when she beat them with the "rod" (Wooden paddle).[/QUOTE]
[/B]
How excessive? Did she hit them once and not leave a mark, or did she put them in the hospital? There's a moral difference there.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 10-25-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by nos482, posted 10-25-2002 9:10 PM nos482 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 189 of 193 (20882)
10-26-2002 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by John
10-26-2002 10:07 AM


[QUOTE][B]I'd probably respond that other people in other religions have found similar evidence -- or say they have, being subjective I cannot verify it-- and not all of you can be right.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
That's certainly true, many religions (including mine) are exclusive...though it is doctrine (as I understand it) that most forms of religion have at least *some* truth in them.
[QUOTE][B]Dividing the world into multiple metaphysical arenas and using different rules in each just seems like cheating.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I'm sympathetic to that opinion, but there might actually be "multiple metaphysical arenas" that will always be out of the reach of science. I don't think religion, in some form or another, will ever go away, even if we didn't have any psychological need for it and even if they're all baloney.
[QUOTE][B]hmmm.... this could be interesting....[/QUOTE]
[/B]
But it's all very circumstantial, of course....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by John, posted 10-26-2002 10:07 AM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by nator, posted 10-29-2002 10:02 AM gene90 has not replied

  
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