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Author Topic:   Foundations of ID
Ooook!
Member (Idle past 4157 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 196 of 213 (208573)
05-16-2005 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Jerry Don Bauer
05-15-2005 3:12 AM


I've been quote mined!!!
I've been away for a few days and see what happens. :rolleyes:

It's a shame you're going Jerry, I've quite enjoyed our exchanges. If you change your mind and want to continue the discussion then give us a shout.

I would like to point out one thing though:

Jerry writes:

I liked Ooooks very honest statement to me. I think he probably is a scientist as his words are fairly wise. He mentioned something and compared it as being: "Similar to the Atheist/Agnostic Agenda you get handed once you start researching evolutionary biology."

This is out of context. I had my tongue firmly in my cheek when I made that comment. It was not an honest 'admission', as would be made clear by including the full quote (note the smiley):

Ooook! writes:

Similar to the Atheist/Agnostic Agenda you get handed once you start researching evolutionary biology ;)

I would like to make it crystal clear that there is no such agenda. I was trying (perhaps a little inadvisably) to make a joke about creationism's attempt to equate science to religion. This is something we can debate if you decide to come back to EvC.

See you around, hope you enjoyed the debate.

Ooook!


"Anything that is true of E. coli must be true of elephants, except more so." -Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-15-2005 3:12 AM Jerry Don Bauer has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 05-16-2005 10:48 AM Ooook! has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 197 of 213 (208602)
05-16-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Ooook!
05-16-2005 8:47 AM


Re: I've been quote mined!!!
Ooook! writes:

Similar to the Atheist/Agnostic Agenda you get handed once you start researching evolutionary biology ;)

I have to admit I was a bit shocked when I first saw this comment. After all the lectures about the need for secrecy and security, one of our own goes blabbing the truth and giving it all away. I suppose characterizing it as "tongue in cheek" is the best damage control at this point, but next time think before you type. I certainly hope you won't be giving anything else away, like the secret fossil factories in the mid-west, or the secret genetic evidence fabrication courses provided by all the top universities.

I still have many fond memories of the many fossil planting expeditions of my college days. It was labor intensive work, but well worth it, especially given the organization of the other side. You really have to give them some respect sometimes. I still can't believe they got away with that Dead Sea Scroll stuff.

I will, of course, be submitting this post with the top-secret submission button that means this post will only be visible to evolutionists, and if you reply I assume you'll do the same. Our ultimate goal of the death of religion and the triumph of atheism is within our reach. Ultimate victory will be ours! Peace, my brother in evolution!

--Percy

This message has been edited by Percy, 05-16-2005 10:56 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Ooook!, posted 05-16-2005 8:47 AM Ooook! has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Ooook!, posted 05-16-2005 11:40 AM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 200 by jar, posted 05-16-2005 3:12 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
KKawohl
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 213 (208617)
05-16-2005 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-27-2005 7:09 PM


quote:
Today, modern ID is a totally science based discipline that has no ghosts, gods, fairies, leprechauns or metaphysics in it anywhere.

I agree, except man's mind encompasses spirit which is energy, which can be considered metaphysical energy.

See http://transcendentalists.org

Kurt


"I Am A Transcendentalist"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-27-2005 7:09 PM Jerry Don Bauer has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by nator, posted 05-20-2005 8:33 AM KKawohl has responded

  
Ooook!
Member (Idle past 4157 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 199 of 213 (208621)
05-16-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Percy
05-16-2005 10:48 AM


Re: I've been quote mined!!!
I certainly hope you won't be giving anything else away, like the secret fossil factories in the mid-west, or the secret genetic evidence fabrication courses provided by all the top universities.

Sure thing! There's no way I want things like that getting out into the world. I've just finished paying pennance for my last transgression, and that was just a minor slip about radioactive dating.

Any more mistakes like that and I'm never going to be promoted to the Agnostic High Command

I will, of course, be submitting this post with the top-secret submission button that means this post will only be visible to evolutionists, and if you reply I assume you'll do the same

The what-now?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 05-16-2005 10:48 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31776
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 200 of 213 (208704)
05-16-2005 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Percy
05-16-2005 10:48 AM


Re: I've been quote mined!!!
Next thing you folk will reveal that the primary fossil factory is run by Kent Hovind who actually created the whole concept of evolution as a marketing ploy for his replica making company and his theme park.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 05-16-2005 10:48 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 201 of 213 (208710)
05-16-2005 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-27-2005 7:09 PM


The fossil record is evidence for ID?

Amazing....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-27-2005 7:09 PM Jerry Don Bauer has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 202 of 213 (208711)
05-16-2005 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-27-2005 10:35 PM


quote:
This doesn't make a lick of sense unless I'm missing something. Are you insinuating that something based on philosophy cannot be science? If so, you just shot yourself in the foot as the rules of the scientific method are based on the philosophy of Karl Popper and the sciences of physics, chemistry and biology are based in the philosophy of methodological naturalism

Popper was a bit player. He overstated his claims and borrowed most of what he wrote. In practice, his criteria are untenable and silly.
The only reason creationists like him so much is because of his claim regarding evolution - which he later retracted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-27-2005 10:35 PM Jerry Don Bauer has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 203 of 213 (208715)
05-16-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-28-2005 3:33 AM


Re: A few questions.
quote:
You bring up Popper's falsification and rightly so. Yet, nothing in Darwinism is falsifiable. I would love to hear someone falsify common descent, or that man and apes shared a common ancestor, or that huge, ferocious land mammals called pakicetus poofed its legs into flippers, crawled off into the oceans and magically morphed into whales, or that weird looking reptiles shoved their jawbones up into their ears and poofed into mammals.

So would I. Since nobody has been able to falsify those things, according to Popper's criterion they must be scientific?
Or do you mean these things must be falsified in order to qualify as science? If so, that makes no snese at all, for if they are flasified they are no longer considered valid and so would not be used.
quote:

You talk about a fairy tale for grown-ups. That reads like a poorly written script of Jurassic Park. It would be funny if people weren't teaching it as "facts of science."



Yeah, coming from the guy that once referred to genes as 'tissues', your scientific opinion is oh so worthy of consideration...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-28-2005 3:33 AM Jerry Don Bauer has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 204 of 213 (208717)
05-16-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2005 10:00 PM


quote:
It seems like a pretty big jump to me. In order for waves to act as particles we have to be observing them, so in order for the universe to exist god has to be oberving it.

Ridiculous, isn't it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2005 10:00 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 218 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 205 of 213 (208718)
05-16-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jerry Don Bauer
04-29-2005 4:47 AM


Re: Debunking some nonsense
This is too funny...

quote:
quote:
I'd love to hear your technical explanation of how a photon detector works.
On second thought, don't bother. A detector cannot observe a photon "going by". To detect a photon, it must hit the detector, it's as simple as that. And when a photon hits a detector, it's no longer available to cause an interference pattern elsewhere.

COOL! The next time you pass a cop with a radar detector out, floorboard that sucker. Remember, he cannot observe you going by unless you hit him. (I wouldn't recommend that latter one, either).


Ummm... Jerry Don?

Do you know what the acronym RADAR stands for?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 04-29-2005 4:47 AM Jerry Don Bauer has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 512 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 206 of 213 (209952)
05-20-2005 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by KKawohl
05-16-2005 11:21 AM


quote:
I agree, except man's mind encompasses spirit which is energy, which can be considered metaphysical energy.

It does, and it is?

How do you know?

Can you show me?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by KKawohl, posted 05-16-2005 11:21 AM KKawohl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by KKawohl, posted 05-20-2005 12:28 PM nator has not yet responded

  
KKawohl
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 213 (210005)
05-20-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by nator
05-20-2005 8:33 AM


Energy
The great energies of nature are known to us only by their effects; power efficiently and forcibly exerted; vigorous or effectual operation; life; spirit;(physics) capacity for performing work. The kinetic energy of a body is the energy it has in virtue of being in motion. It is measured by one half of the product of the mass of each element of the body multiplied by the square of the velocity of the element, relative to some given body or point. The available kinetic energy of a material system unconnected with any other system is that energy which is due to the motions of the parts of the system relative to its center of mass. The potential energy of a body or system is that energy which is not kinetic; -- energy due to configuration. Kinetic energy is sometimes called actual energy. Kinetic energy is exemplified in the vis viva of moving bodies, in heat, electric currents, etc.; potential energy, in a bent spring, or a body suspended a given distance above the earth and acted on by gravity.

IMHO, everything in the universe follows the universal laws which separate the physical and the spiritual existence. Energy is power, vigor, liveliness, intensity. It is a measurable quantity, without reference to its nature or source. Energy, or life is a fundamental attribute and function of the universe. Our bodies build up and harness a minute amount of spiritual energy that is transferred into the spiritual dimension upon our death. Then this spiritual energy is limitless because it lacks resistance and this energy can assimilate as a unity or be separate and individual. It is this spiritual energy that is God. It is a composition of the spiritual intellect of the universe, of every soul that has passed from the physical universe into the spiritual universe. It can create a spiritual existence of beauty that is beyond the imagination…my spirit has experienced it.


"I Am A Transcendentalist". Transcendentalism Today = Balancing Science and Religion http://transcendentalism.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by nator, posted 05-20-2005 8:33 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Percy, posted 05-20-2005 12:51 PM KKawohl has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 208 of 213 (210011)
05-20-2005 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by KKawohl
05-20-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Energy
KKawohl writes:

Our bodies build up and harness a minute amount of spiritual energy that is transferred into the spiritual dimension upon our death.

Do you have any objective evidence for this spirtual energy? And what does this have to do with ID?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by KKawohl, posted 05-20-2005 12:28 PM KKawohl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by KKawohl, posted 05-20-2005 1:08 PM Percy has responded

  
KKawohl
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 213 (210014)
05-20-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Percy
05-20-2005 12:51 PM


Re: Energy
My knowledge therein is limited. Will we eventually be able to prove the existence of our spiritual enery's interaction with another dimension? I can only relate to my spiritual experiences and testify to their accuracy. It was like a burst of energy...an immensely puzzling and physically draining experience; the mind then attempted to
reassemble this interaction, wherefrom I perceived was how most religions
were started. Was this an illusion or an interaction with a cosmic spiritual
consciousness; a united spiritual intelligence, an ID? You will have your
opinions and I have mine.

I agree that spiritual matters can not be understood by science. I'll refer to Dr. Pim van Lommel (cardiologist) who answered the questions about my experiences thusly:

Dear Kurt Kawohl,

Thank you for mailing to me your near-death experience. The response from your father is what you usually hear from people who have experienced such an experience and try to communicate about it. This is such a hard confrontation. But I also know, that many, many people are open for it, and I also know that this is not a dream, hallucination or a vivid imagination.

Be careful in communicating about your experience, and listen to your intuition in finding people who want to listen. Be patient. I wish you all the best.

Q1. You can call consciousness outside the brain "spirit", if you like. But
this can be confusing, because not everybody has the same ideas about what
exactly "spirit" should be. And there are several "levels" of consciousness,
waking consciousness, dreaming consciousness, "subconsciousness", collective
human consciousness, morphogenetic consciousness, higher consciousness,
Cosmic consciousness, Divine consciousness. All these levels of
consciousness are interconnected, and available, also during our life in our
body.
Q2. I agree with you that also deep mental stress can facilitate the access
to other levels or other aspects of our consciousness, See also answer Q1.
But also NDE, meditation, regression therapy, isolation, depression,
terminal illness and other circumstances can facilitate this effect.
Q3. This phase-space is a higher dimensional space, presumably not just the
fourth dimension, according to Quantum Mechanics. Induced experiences are
never the same as a NDE, sometimes several elements can be experienced, like
flashes of the past, a feeling of not being in the body, or a period of
unconsciousness, but aspects like a life-review, or transformation after the
experience are hardly mentioned after induced experiences. All
ND-expeirences are personal experiences, where finding words for it is very
difficult, and cultural, demographic and religious factors play a role in
this. So I have never heard a similar experience ever.
Q4. Brain-dead is a sometimes very difficult diagnosis. But when the brain
has no function any more, without circulation in the brain, there should be
no access to stimuli whatsoever according current medical science, which
"believes" that consciousness is exclusively produced in and located in the
brain.

With kind regards,
Pim van Lommel, cardiologist

I have had three spiritual experiences in my 63 years & I think I know but then again I have to rely on my brain accurately translating these experiences which were puzzling and overwhelming....and then that is where faith takes over but then rationality replaces it with doubt and one realizes that every man is fallible because what man considers as the ID is way too astonishing for any human to accurately grasp.

Kurt


"I Am A Transcendentalist". Transcendentalism Today = Balancing Science and Religion http://transcendentalism.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Percy, posted 05-20-2005 12:51 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Percy, posted 05-20-2005 1:25 PM KKawohl has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19108
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 210 of 213 (210017)
05-20-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by KKawohl
05-20-2005 1:08 PM


Re: Energy
Hi Kurt,

The questions I asked were:

Percy writes:

Do you have any objective evidence for this spirtual energy? And what does this have to do with ID?

Your answer was:

KKawohl writes:

Was this an illusion or an interaction with a cosmic spiritual consciousness; a united spiritual intelligence, an ID? You will have your opinions and I have mine.

...

I agree that spiritual matters can not be understood by science.

Just as you say, personal testimony about spirtual matters is not scientific. Scientific views have the empirical support of objective evidence. The science forums are reserved for empirical arguments.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by KKawohl, posted 05-20-2005 1:08 PM KKawohl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by KKawohl, posted 05-20-2005 2:10 PM Percy has responded

  
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