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Author Topic:   Who designed the ID designer(s)?
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 396 (208819)
05-16-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by RAZD
05-16-2005 7:58 PM


yeah, lets wait for the philosophy thread i started for that.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 92 of 396 (208820)
05-16-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Limbo
05-16-2005 7:29 PM


please start an "anti-darwinist" thread for your continued pointless rants unfounded assertions.
here we are supposed to be discussing the ID designer designer: either they evolved or they are gods.
thus ID does not reject evolution, so your views on evolution are not relevant.
you need to look at the {is ID properly pursued thread} not this one.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Limbo, posted 05-16-2005 7:29 PM Limbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Limbo, posted 05-16-2005 8:34 PM RAZD has replied

  
Limbo
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 396 (208821)
05-16-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by RAZD
05-16-2005 8:30 PM


I did, its in the proposed new topic area.

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 Message 92 by RAZD, posted 05-16-2005 8:30 PM RAZD has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 94 of 396 (208824)
05-16-2005 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Philip
05-16-2005 7:33 PM


Re: ID a form of faith
using different meanings for the word create is to make the logical fallacy of equivocation
creating a work of art is not the same as creating a universe, it is just the application of creativity to the pursuit of {decoration\statement}
anyone who confuses ID or conflates it with another religion has not considered the consequences of the inherent contradictions.
very simply ID is the faith that designers exist and that they have taken a personal interest in life on this planet.
by whatever definition of religion you use, that fits.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 396 (208825)
05-16-2005 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Limbo
05-16-2005 8:34 PM


cool, I'll look for it's release.
thanks

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 96 of 396 (208829)
05-16-2005 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by RAZD
05-16-2005 7:49 PM


Re: A form of faith
I'm comfortable using the standard definitions, particularly these ones:
Oh I appreciate that you are comfortable with them...however I postulated that our natural laws maybe one of many subsets of supernatural laws. And I believe I managed to convey a feasable supernatural environment which does not require a god or gods.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 05-16-2005 9:40 PM Modulous has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 97 of 396 (208851)
05-16-2005 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Modulous
05-16-2005 8:51 PM


Re: A form of faith
And I believe I managed to convey a feasable supernatural environment which does not require a god or gods.
just supernaturally acting beings living in the suburb of New Mount Olympus (just NW outside of Seattle).
and which are, by definition, gods.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 98 of 396 (208963)
05-17-2005 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by RAZD
05-16-2005 9:40 PM


Re: A form of faith
Are you suggesting that all supernatural beings are gods? Everything from demons, angels, nephilim, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, Uri Gellar, wizards, leprechauns...?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 05-16-2005 9:40 PM RAZD has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 99 of 396 (208966)
05-17-2005 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Modulous
05-17-2005 6:55 AM


Re: A form of faith
lol
any beings capable of supernatural action
it is the supernatural action that makes them gods by definition
small g and range from lesser or demi- to full omnipotent.
this is also the problem for any ID designer that accomplishes his design task by no observable natural means.
it is one thing to design something, but design alone is insufficient: it needs physical realization, usually accomplished by normal physical interactions with normal physical objects.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2005 6:55 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 100 of 396 (208968)
05-17-2005 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by RAZD
05-17-2005 7:06 AM


Re: A form of faith
it is the supernatural action that makes them gods by definition
If that is how you define divinity then that is the conclusion you will reach. However, I don't think that your definition is the commonly accepted definition. I'd say you've loaded your definition to make your logic impossible to refute. I put it to you that any hypothesis regarding the origins of the big bang (eg M-Theory) are by definition supernatural.
Anyhoo - I'm going to write to James Randi to tell him to stop tempting god

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 396 (208970)
05-17-2005 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Modulous
05-17-2005 7:23 AM


Re: A form of faith
It's not my definition
god n.
1. God
...a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
...b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
It is one inherent in the concept of supernatural.
and I also put to you: what is the difference between saying that {unknown\undefined} dark 'stuffs' {mysteriously} act to make the cosmos spin, and saying "god does it" eh?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2005 7:23 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 102 of 396 (208971)
05-17-2005 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
05-17-2005 7:32 AM


Re: A form of faith
I think you are defining it backwards. By definition all gods are supernatural, but not all supernatural things are gods. For example, who would be worsipping these IDers? Nobody, therefore they are not gods, by your definitions:- "believed in and worshiped by a people".
Supernatural means:-" not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws"
It can be used to describe a god, but a supernatural entity does not have to be a deity. For example, a vampire, which is also not worshiped, neither are ghosts or fairies, or of course, Uri Gellar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2005 7:32 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2005 9:52 PM Modulous has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 103 of 396 (209187)
05-17-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Modulous
05-17-2005 7:45 AM


Re: A form of faith
hmm, though I had answered this earlier.
it seems to me that many people confuse the definition of gods with the omnipotent omnietcetera kind, and tend to ignore the many numbers of lesser dieties that have been parts of most religions.
look at the lesser {gods\esses} of the {roman\greek\egyptian\native\norse\etcetera} and ask yourself how supernatural they had to be. there were also many examples of people becoming gods or transfomed into gods.
look at {loki\pan\crow} the mischief maker.
there are also religions that do not worship, and ones of many gods where not all are worshiped, and yet no one would deny their belief in those gods.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2005 7:45 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2005 6:49 AM RAZD has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 104 of 396 (209286)
05-18-2005 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by RAZD
05-17-2005 9:52 PM


Re: A form of faith
Let me try and explain this again, using a simple example. I believe it is a syllogistic error your are committing.
  • All mammals are warm blooded
  • Birds are warm blooded
  • Birds are mammals
Only what you are saying here is:
  • All gods are supernatural
  • The IDers are supernatural
  • The IDers are gods
Its a logical fallacy. Your logic stands refuted until such time as you can demonstrate that supernatural entity always means god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2005 9:52 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by RAZD, posted 05-18-2005 7:43 AM Modulous has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 105 of 396 (209298)
05-18-2005 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Modulous
05-18-2005 6:49 AM


Re: A form of faith
Ah, but
when applying definitions to cases it should be in the form:
  • only mammals are warm-blooded, have {fur\hair}, and bear live young(1)
  • humans have these characteristics, but birds do not
  • therefore humans are mammals, birds are not
and
  • only gods can act in supernatural ways
  • the IDers act in supernatural ways
  • therefore the IDers are gods
your turn
(1) - I think I have sufficient defining characteristics of mammals.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2005 6:49 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2005 7:55 AM RAZD has replied

  
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