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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 311 of 329 (20820)
10-25-2002 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Wordswordsman
10-20-2002 7:09 PM


Christians recognized the truth the Hebrews missed.
Did Jews and Israelites miss this truth too, or was it only the Hebrews?
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-20-2002 7:09 PM Wordswordsman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by nos482, posted 10-25-2002 6:37 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 313 of 329 (20888)
10-26-2002 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by nos482
10-25-2002 6:37 PM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
Christians recognized the truth the Hebrews missed.
Did Jews and Israelites miss this truth too, or was it only the Hebrews?

Aren't all three of these basicially the same people?

HI nos, pleased to meet you
Do you mean from the context of the bible, or in the real world?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by nos482, posted 10-25-2002 6:37 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by nos482, posted 10-26-2002 2:34 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 315 of 329 (20953)
10-28-2002 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by nos482
10-26-2002 2:34 PM


Hi nos.
I was hoping you would say from the Bible, as it would be far easier to explain!!
Outside of the biblical tradition it is difficult to equate these three terms. For example, the term ‘Hebrew’ or to be more accurate ‘ivri’ cannot be found anywhere in external sources, history is blissfully unaware of their existence. In the biblical sources the term ‘ivri’ applies to a large group of people who are the descendants of an eponymous ‘Ever’ in biblical ethnology. If the term relates to an ethnic group then it is an ethnic group that can ONLY be found in the Bible. (Halpern, Rise of Israel pp147-9)
So, despite some valiant attempts, scholars have failed to find the ‘Hebrews’ in non-biblical sources.
The best known attempt to solve the mystery of the invisible ‘Hebrews’ was to equate them with the Habiru / ’Apiru that can be found in non biblical sources. The Amarna tablets, which date from the 14th century BCE, do not mention any group called the Israelites but there are references, in letters from the ruler of Jerusalem IR-Heba, to a people called Habiru. (Lemche, pp25-49)
It doesn’t take a great genius to compare the habiru linguistically with the term Hebrew from the Old Testament. The habiru are also connected with the appearance of an element of Asiatic origin, which had been known for some time from Egypt in the form of the term ‘pr.w’
Archaeology provided good evidence from the find at Tel el Amarna that contains a number of texts that mention the habiru. However, the habiru are only mentioned in letters from Jerusalem, which according to the Bible, was only conquered during the reign of David, several hundred years later.
The answer to this problem was provided initially by the recognition of an element labelled SA.GAZ as being additional references to the habiru. These people appear in a context almost identical to the one found about the habiru in IR-Heba’s letters. This hypothesis is also backed up by evidence from the Hittite archive at Baghazkoy / Hattashash.
Then references to the habiru began popping up all over the Near East, as well as the Egyptian references there are also references from Susa in Persia and Mesopotamia. The habiru are identified as a marginal social stratum that was composed of mercenaries, raiders, gypsy type wanderers and slave labour(McNutt, pp46-7)or relates to any person that was hired by someone to do something (McCarter p.147)
All this means that, at the moment, we do not know for sure who the Hebrews actually were, in a non biblical context of course.
In regard to the Israelites, there are similar problems with identifying the origins of the people that came to be known as Israelites.
Archaeology has no evidence for an ‘Israel’ before 1207 BCE and the inscription of the Pharaoh Merneptah, and even this is obscure. The origins of Ancient Israel is an ongoing debate, no one knows where these people came from or when they became a nation. One thing that is universally accepted in regard to the origins of the Israelites is that the bible narratives of their origin, the enslavement in Egypt, the Exodus, the conquest and settlement in Canaan belong to the realms of myth and religious propaganda. Here’s a quote from William Dever who is sure that the bible is useful as an historical source, he really does fight for the bible very well in books, debates and journal articles:
‘there isn’t a single reputable professional archaeologist in the world who espouses the conquest model in Israel, Europe or America. We don’t have to say anymore about the conquest model’. (William Dever, The Rise of Israel p29)
So we have one of the leading defenders of the ‘bible as history’ acknowledging that the bible narratives regarding the Enslavement, Exodus, and the Military Conquest by Joshua are not taken seriously by any reputable bible scholar.
The flavour of the month at the moment in this area is that the Israelites emerged from within Canaanite society; they never left Canaan in the first place so there didn’t have to be an exodus, military conquest etc. Evidence for this is the cultural continuities found in the lowland city-states and the new villages that appeared in the hill country at the end of the Late Bronze Age — Early Iron Age.
I could go on quoting books and opinions of many bible scholars but the bottom line is: we don’t know who the Hebrews were, if they existed at all, we don’t know for sure where the Israelites came from or when they emerged as a nation.
Finally, the Jews are a people who came from a distinct land. They are acknowledged as coming from Judah by Roman and Greek sources and later the name ‘Jew’ was applied to anyone that followed the teachings of the Hebrew Bible.
Therefore, your query about these three groups being basically the same people but called the different terms depending on the time they are looked at, would have to be no. As we are looking at these terms in the ‘real world’ then we cannot identify for sure the Hebrews or the Israelites so they cannot be equated with anyone. This doesn’t mean that they never will be identified as the same group but at the moment it isn’t possible to trace them.
If you wanted to look to the bible tradition for evidence then there are problems too. For example, Abraham is seen as the first Hebrew and it is only his son Jacob/Israel who fathers the Israelites, so the rest of Abraham’s dysfunctional family and their offspring would be Hebrew but could not be Israelites, neither could they be Jews, as Jews are the descendants of Judah, Jacobs son.
You can see in the Bible text that all Jews could be Israelites, but not all Israelites can be Jews. It’s a Holy Rubik’s Cube!!
The study of the Hebrew-Israelite-Jew, from out side the bible tradition, isn’t as straight forward as one might think, especially when there is little or no evidence for two of the three groups. There may be texts or other sources that haven’t been found yet that could clear the mist a bit, but at the moment I for one would treat these three groups as entirely separate entities.
If you are interested in reading more on this topic here are some books you might like to read, I have quoted from some of these in the post.
Shanks, Dever, Halpern and MacCarter. The Rise of Ancient Israel. Biblical Archaeology Society. Wasington 1992.
Paula McNutt. Reconstructing the Society of Ancient Israel. SPCK. London 1999.
Nils Peter Lemche. The Israelites in History and Tradition. SPCK. London 1998.
William Dever. What did the Biblical writers know and when did they know it? Eerdmens Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan.
John C.N. Laughlin. Archaeology and the Bible. Routledge London 2000.
Take care nos

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by nos482, posted 10-26-2002 2:34 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by nos482, posted 10-28-2002 5:49 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 317 of 329 (20983)
10-29-2002 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by nos482
10-28-2002 5:49 PM


Nearly 6000 years of tradition must have come from somewhere?
** Yes, from the imaginations of the bible authors as there are NO external sources to many traditions, such as the enslavement, exodus etc. The authors of the bible weren't adverse to borrowing material from other cultures and claims of divine intervention in these traditions hardly constitute reliable history.
Or could they be like the difference between Egyptians of today and those of several thousand years ago where all they have in common is their name?
Egyptian history is strongly verified from many sources, such as Mari texts and Amarna tablets.
Best Wishes
Brian
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by nos482, posted 10-28-2002 5:49 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by nos482, posted 10-29-2002 6:48 AM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 320 of 329 (21077)
10-30-2002 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by nos482
10-29-2002 6:48 AM


HI good day Nos.
In regards to the Egyptians of today I had meant genetically. From what I understand is that because of Egypt being invaded so many times over recent centuries that the people there now bear very little to those who lived there a few thousand years ago. In other words the original Egyptian "race" is basically extinct.
** An interesting angle, and one that I would say can be applied to many 'races'.
The thing is, with the Hebrew-Israelite-Jew relationship, there's no way to track their relationship in non-biblical sources. Anyone that asks the question: 'Are the jews the same race as the Hebrews?' would have to have the reply, 'who are the Hebrews'?
An intersting, and I dare say controversal angle, would be to look at the theory that the 'Hebrews' never left Canaan in the first place, or that not all 'Hebrews' did. If this is the case then are Palestinians brought into the equation?
Keith Whitelam has been severly criticised by some scholars for his book 'The Invention of Ancient Israel: The Silencing of Palestinian History'. Keith argues that American and Israeli bible scholars and archaeologists have been so intent on finding 'Ancient Israel' that Palestinian history has essentially been ignored.
Keith proposes that the archaeological surveys in the west bank have been too heaviliy influenced by bible scholars with their obsession with finding Ancient Israel and that this scholarsip has deproved that Palestinians of a land and a past.
There has been some claims of anti Semitism directed at Keith, mostly by scholars who probably realise how accurate Keith is.
So who knows, maybe archaeology will discover that instead of an 'Hebrew-Israelite-Jew' relationship, there might actually be a 'Palestinian (Canaanite)-Israelite-Jew' relationship.
However, I prefer to steer clear of the political side of the discussion as it is getting far to personal, and prefer the archaeological/historical approach to finding the origins of Israel.
Best wishes and thanks for sharing some interesting information.
Bria
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by nos482, posted 10-29-2002 6:48 AM nos482 has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 327 of 329 (46478)
07-18-2003 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Newborn
07-18-2003 8:26 PM


Re: answer
Hi Newborn,
Is certain that the world was perfect at that time
How do you know that the world was perfect at that time ?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Newborn, posted 07-18-2003 8:26 PM Newborn has not replied

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