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| Author | Topic: Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days)  Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1366 days)  Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Maybe a better way of stating it was that, although I thought there was some good possible insights in God's so-called "hidden nature", the analogy seemed to have its limits when believer/child similarities were contrasted in more detail. well, of course. all analogies have shortcomings. 
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Mr. Ex Nihilo Member (Idle past 1359 days)  Posts: 712 Joined: |
This is message is for both jar and Legend.
First off, to jar.
jar writes: Sorry, but if GOD exists He is GOD. Christianity is a religion where we try to learn what GOD wants us to do. But it is only a religion. If GOD exists, GOD exists whether the Christian beliefs are correct or wrong, whether the Bible is accurate or not. Christianity is a belief, not a fact. GOD is fact, not a belief. I would just like to chime in and say that, even though I wouldn't have expressed it the same way, I kind of agree with this position to an extent. Like I gave in conclusion in message 44:
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: It will suffice to say, from my own perspective anyway, that many find it easier to believe "in God" than they do to believe their own "holy writings about God". Although surely there would be people who would lose their faith in God if their holy writings were disproven, still nonetheless many would continue believing in some kind of divinity or spiritual reality anyway. As the deists themselves insist, believing in God is a logical conclusion regardless of what any religious revelations might have to say about deity. I just wanted to repeat this above quote just in case no one actually read it. Now, onto Legend's comments.
Legend writes: I strongly disagree with both of you. The creation may be accepted -at a push- as evidence for the existence of a god, but not necessarily of the Judeo-Christian God YHWH. The only association between the creation and the Christian God is found in the Bible. So...um...who inspired the Jews to write about the association between the creation and the God that is found in the Scriptures? You either have the answer that God inspired it. Or you have the answer that prior religions inspired it. Either way, do not Christians apparently claim that it is this exact same God which they have adopted as their own? Likewise, either way, some "people" were evidently "inspired" to make the connection between nature and God. How did this happen "before" the Scriptures were even written down?
Legend writes: You cannot argue for the universe as proof of the existence of YHWH, unless you quote the Bible. Again, so who or what inspired the authors of the Scriptures to draw this connection in the first place?
Legend writes: I can argue, with equal validity, that the universe was created by Pepe the Pink Parrot and you cannot add any more weight to your counter-argument unless you back it up with the Bible. Buh?  Show me other world religions that have concluded that Pepe the Pink Parrot made the heavens and the earth? I can also point to deists, Muslims, and practictioners of Judaism -- all of whom within their various segments have concluded philosophical leanings which are very similar to the Christian concept of creation. I can even point to the most ancient writings of other religions which seem to have also had some concept of the God as an "All-Father" type of "Creator God" well before Judaism, Christinaity, and Islam ever came into existence within the scope of human history.
For example writes:
AfricaThe Akan, Ashanti, Ga, Fante, and related people of Ghana and the Ivory Coast believe the universe was created by a supreme deity variously known as Oboadee (Creator), Nyame (God), or Ananse Kokuroko (The Great Spider). Nyambe, in particular, was considred the supreme being and creator god. Wide-spread over Western Equatorial Africa, his variant names included: Nzambi, Ndyambi, Dzambu, Tsambi, Yame, Sami, Zam, Monzam, Onayame. Also known as Nyambi, he was considered the creator of all things whose wife was Nailele. They lived on earth for a time but left to avoid the evil actions of Kamunu. AustraliaThe Australian mystery-rites reveal a moral creative being whose home is in or above the heavens, and his name is Maker (Baiame), Master (Biamban) and Father (Papang). The Benedictine monks of Australia say that the natives believe in an omnipotent Being, the creator of heaven and earth, whom they call Motogon. The Australian will say, "No, not seen him [i.e. Baiame], but I have felt him". ChinaLong ago before the introduction of Buddhism from India and the advent of Taoism, the Chinese believed in Shang Ti, a God so great that no images were to be made to represent it and the one true God who made the heavens, the earth, and all that is in both. This supreme god ruled over lesser gods of the sun, the moon, the wind, the rain, and other natural forces and places. Shang-Ti also regulated human affairs as well as ruling over the material universe. EgyptIn the most ancient monuments of Egypt the simplest and most precise conception of one God is expressed. For example, the Egyptian Book of the Dead demonstrates that the Egyptian people originally believed in one great God and not many. He is one and alone; no other beings are with Him; He is the only being living in truth; He is the self-existing one who made all things, and He alone has not been made. IndiaIn the Rig-Veda, the most ancient of the Hindu sacred books, traces of a primitive monotheism are clearly shown. The Deity is called "the only existing being" who breathed, calmly self-contained, in the beginning before there was sky or atmosphere day or night, light or darkness. This being is not the barren philosophical entity found in the later Upanishads, for he is called "our Father", "our Creator", omniscient, who listens to prayers. IranianThe Gathas, the most ancient hymns of the Avesta, form the kernel about which the sacred literature of the Iranians clustered in an aftergrowth. Although a duality of good and evil is expressed, they still nonethelss inculcate belief in Ahura Mazda, the self-existent omnipotent being. He is the all-powerful Lord who made heaven and earth, and all that is therein, and who governs everything with wisdom. Legend writes: The Bible is the only explicit and physical evidence for the existence and mind of the Christian God. Really?
Legend writes: Even if we accept -for argument's sake- that the creation is the product of the Christian God, it still doesn't tell us anything about his mind, his plan or his intentions. Well...assuming that creation gives us a glimpse of its creator, let's take a look at what nature can tell us about it's creator. As Don Swewart notes:
Don Stewart writes: There has been a debate concerning how much information about God can be derived from nature. Basically there are five points of view: nature can teach us nothing about God, only believers can understand truth about God from nature, nature can actually prove that God exists, nature provides enough truth as to be able to save people, nature provides everyone a knowledge of God’s existence but not enough to save. Stewart goes on to commnet as follows (just to give some ideas behind this discussion).
Don Stewart writes: 1. There Is No Truth From Nature Some Bible students argue that natural theology, as such, does not exist. Fallen humanity cannot derive any truth from nature. Because humankind has fallen from their original perfect state we are now totally corrupted by sin. This fact holds true for believer and unbeliever alike. 2. Only Believers Can Understand It Some Christians have argued that only believers can understand the testimony of nature concerning the things of God. Those who have the benefit of God’s Word can clearly understand the physical world because of the testimony of Scripture. Without Scripture, nature tells unbelievers nothing. 3. Nature Can Prove God’s Existence It has also been argued that nature can actually prove that God exists. Those who hold this view do not believe that nature is sufficient to save individuals from their sin, but they can know, for a fact, that God does exist. 4. Nature Is Able To Save Lost Sinners There have been some theologians who have argued that truths from nature can actually save those who have not had any acquaintance with special revelation. They believe it is enough in this revelation of God to save an individual. 5. Nature Provides A Basic Knowledge Of God The biblical position is that nature can provide a basic knowledge of God. All people, at all times, know that God exists through what He has revealed. Yet nature only tells us the basic facts about God. We do not know any specific information abut God. His conclusion is noted as follows:
Don Stewart writes: Nature gives evidence to the precision and creative hand of God. This is called Natural Theology. It is debated as to how much information that it alone can provide humanity. Some feel nature can teach humanity nothing about God while others think that only believers can benefit from the truths about God found in nature. Others feel that nature can actually prove God’s existence. There is also the argument that nature gives enough evidence about God to save those who do not have access to Scripture. The best view seems to be that nature can provide basic truths to humanity but falls short of giving any absolute truth. Which view do you hold? My view, with certain qualifications, is somewhat complementary to the view that nature (by virtue of its creator) gives enough evidence about God to save those who do not have access to Scripture.
Legend writes: The only way to do this is by looking at the Bible. Then why was Aristotle making conclusions very similar to Aquinas around 300 years before Christ was born? Why have many people also come to the conclusion that the creation is the reflection of their own deity?
Legend writes: BTW, many people have also come to the conclusion that the creation is the reflection of Vishnu, Allah and many other deities. Yes. Exactly. Wait a second here. Do you understand what you've just done here? You're basically emphasizing my central point that there exists a natural knowledge of God expressed via many cultures in the forms of monotheism or polytheism.
Legend writes: In fact, these are many more than those who have decided that it's a reflection of (Christian) God. Hmmm...let's check the statistics on that claim. According to Religions of the world: numbers of adherents; growth rates the following stats are available.
Religious Tolerance writes:
Christianity 30 CE The Bible 2,039 million 32% (dropping) Islam 622 CE Qur'an & Hadith 1,226 million 19% (growing) Hinduism 1,500 BCE The Veda 828 million 13% (stable) No religion * No date None 775 million 12% (dropping) Chinese folk rel. 270 BCE None 390 million 6% Buddhism 523 BCE The Tripitaka 364 million 6% (stable) Tribal Religions, Shamanism, Animism Prehistory Oral tradition 232 million 4% Atheists No date None 150 million 2% New religions. Various Various 103 million 2% Sikhism 1500 CE Guru Granth Sahib 23.8 million <1% Judaism No consensus Torah, Talmud 14.5 million <1% Spiritism 12.6 million <1% Baha'i Faith 1863 CE Most Holy Book 7.4 million <1% Confucianism 520 BCE Lun Yu 6.3 million <1% Jainism 570 BCE Siddhanta, Pakrit 4.3 million <1% Zoroastrianism No consensus Avesta 2.7 million <1% Shinto 500 CE Kojiki, Nohon Shoki 2.7 million <1% Taoism 550 BCE Tao-te-Ching 2.7 million <1% Other Various Various 1.1 million <1% Wicca 800 BCE, 1940 CE None 500,000? <1% According to this, apparently somewhere around 51% of the world sees nature as being a reflection of its creator within a Judeo-Christian sense. When one starts to examine any of these religions and finds other religions which have come to the same conclusion that nature relects their own creator (or creators), the percentages seem to grow even higher.
Legend writes: On the other hand, noone has ever come to the conclusion that the Bible is the work of any deity other than God. That's really strange because many Christians believe that the Christian Scriptures are a dialectic expansion of the Hebrew Scriptures. Likewise, some (including some Christians) have come to the conclusion that the Hebrew Scriptures are themselves a dialectic expansion of the religious writings of the Babylonians.
Legend writes: That's because the Bible talks repeatedly and exclusively of the work of God. People either believe it or they don't. Actually, I think many Christians simply pick and chose what they believe to be literal or allegorical -- and there are many areas where this happens, including the creation account, the account of the great deluge, the resurrection of Christ, etc... Again, then why do many modern theologians believe that the ancient Israelites practiced some form of henotheism.
Psalm 82:1 writes: God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment. In henotheism, one's focus is on one god, and the henotheist doesn't deny the existence of the other gods. Henotheism is applicable to Hinduism, Isis worship, and the worship of Julian the Apostate, among others. The Amarna period of Egyptian history, headed by Pharaoh Akhenaten and his Great Wife Nefertiti, is often descibed as monotheistic, but henotheism fits better since Akhenaten didn't deny the existence of the other gods. Even in our modern era, many Christians will admit that the adversary himself is called the "god of this age" implying the existence of other "gods" in contrast to the Supreme God. Furthermore, there are Christians that have concluded that the other "pagan gods" of the past are actually "fallen angels" just like the adversary himself. In this instance, if they are concluding that these "pagan gods" were in some way "real", would they not be concluding that that they "believe in Ammon-Ra because of the Bible."?
Legend writes: The same cannot be said of the creation. Many people say 'I believe in [insert favourite god's name] because of the wonder of creation'. Actually, many people say they "don't believe in God" because of all the pain and suffering they see in creation.
Legend writes: Mr Ex, I appreciate your quoting of the Greek philosophers, the cosmological/ ontological argument, St. Anselm & St. Aquinas but I think you're missing the point, which is that they all offer arguments for the necessity of existence of *a * god, not *God - YHWH*. But that's exatly what I'm trying to explain.
Legend writes: Now, I'm not a Christian fundamentalist -far from it- but I accept that if the Bible is true, then it's the only insight we can have into the mind of YHWH. Well...um...welcome to the wonderful world of fundamentalist Christianity -- because you're preaching it right now brother. 
Which, of course, gives Mr Ex's OT question a pre-determined outcome, when applied to the Christian God. Off topic? My question was and still is: Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? I also specifically invited people of other faith to give an account from their own religious perspective to see if their version of God was determined to allow no proof or evidence of her/his/its existence. What are you talking about? Um...I'm going to post the OP of this thread to refresh your mind.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I've noticed that there are at least few here who seem to subscribe to this view. It was crashfrog that pointed out some claim that God does not allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated, because to do so would eliminate the need for faith. While I agree with the concept that some aspects of God are currently beyond our ability to directly experience, I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence. Furthermore, I don't think that simply believing that God exists necessarilly equals having faith in him. In short, my question related to God's existence is related to two complementary positions:
Do you think God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence -- or do you think that God is determined to allow ample proof or evidence of his existence? Whichever way you answer, I would like to also hear why you think this. I will interject my thoughts from my own Judeo-Christian perspective and also attempt to explain why I think God is actually determined to allow proof and evidence of his existence -- and why thinking that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence is probably a major error in our thinking based on our own limited experiences. Although this discusion is primarilly targetted against the idea of God conceiling himself so as to generate "faith", I do believe that this discussion also has relevance to the whole "intelligent design" discusion as well. In addition to this, I welcome input from other faith systems that are not considered Judeo-Christian, including thoughts about God (or gods) from pantheistic, panentheisitic, agnostic or even other monotheistic faiths that I may not be aware of outside the scope of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I would also welcome any atheistic perspectives on this matter. Actually, the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that the whole "God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his exitence" is actually more in line with an atheistic perception of God than a Judeo-Christian one (or any religious perspective for that matter). Just saying. Editted various times for clarification and the correction of typographical errors. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-18-2005 11:02 PM This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-18-2005 11:03 PM
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Checkmate Inactive Member |
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)  Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Limbo Inactive Member |
I think there is a spiritual essence to the origin of faith that God intended to be outside the physical realm. He wants the act of will which initiates the spiritual searching to be based in the heart, not the eyes.
I think proof of God here on Earth is incidental. Without the will behind the spiritual search any ammount of evidence can be explained away, short of eliminating free-will. When a spirit is truly open to God, the very Earth itself is all the proof it needs to search for God. And the thing is, God can see that, and he meets halfway, spirit to Spirit. This is usually a rush people call a revelation, epiphany, ect. After that, a person sees the world through different eyes, begins learning about the Bible openly and objectively, and sees the world in different ways. Epiphanies and spiritual connections to God arent a one time deal either. Its a growth process, until one day you realize its sunk it. You know. Its a presence. Its like a feed-back loop. Of course, it helps if youve ever experienced anything supernatural...after that you know you can never default to atheism ever again  This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-19-2005 04:34 AM This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-19-2005 04:38 AM This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-19-2005 04:43 AM This message has been edited by Limbo, 05-19-2005 04:43 AM
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days)  Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
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Mr. Ex Nihilo Member (Idle past 1359 days) Posts: 712 Joined: |
Checkmate writes: Islaam is not even close to Christianity. Neither Islaam gives any status to Christianity. Remote similarities does not count, which can be found between a number of unequals. Remote similarities? You've got to be joking right? Hmmm...let's take a look at what James Abdul Rahim Gaudet, Rabia Mills and Syed Mumtaz Ali have to say about that at the following site: muslim-canada.org - This website is for sale! - muslim canada Resources and Information. Here's a brief sample:
James Abdul Rahim Gaudet, Rabia Mills and Syed Mumtaz Ali writes:
Muslim: Monotheistic -- God (Allah) is recognized as the Creator. Christian: Monotheistic -- God is recognized as the Creator. Muslim: God is omnipotent, omniscient, immanent within His creation yet transcendent.Christian: God is omnipotent, omniscient, immanent within His creation yet transcendent. Muslim: God has a unique relationship with humans (master and servant).Christian: God has a unique relationship with humans. (master and servant). Muslim: God makes agreements or Covenants with humans.Christianity: God makes agreements or Covenants with humans. Muslim: Have similar eschatology (pertaining to the last days or the end of the world) -- this world will come to an end someday and no-one knows when.Christian: Have similar eschatology (pertaining to the last days or the end of the world) -- this world will come to an end someday and no-one knows when. Muslim: A figure referred to as Satan or Antichrist (dajjal) (a figure of evil) will be defeated at the end of the world.Christian: A figure referred to as Antichrist or Satan (a figure of evil) will be defeated at the end of the world. Muslim: After the world has ended, God will judge humans, based on their actions in compliance with a moral code, specified in the Covenant which God makes with us.Christian: At the end of the world, God will judge humans based on their actions in compliance with a moral code, specified in the Covenant which God makes with us. Muslim: This judgement will determine one's eternal abode, heaven or hell (bliss or punishment).Christian: This judgement will determine one's eternal abode, heaven or hell (bliss or punishment). Muslim: Human beings have a spirit (ruh) which is eternal, continuing its existence after our physical death. As to its origin, the Qur'an says, "When I [God] have fashioned him [Adam] (in due proportions) and breathed into him of My spirit . . ." [Qur'an 15:29]Christian: Human beings have a soul which is eternal, continuing its existence after our physical death Muslim: Humans have the ability (free will) to choose between good and evil (obeying or disobeying God, complying with the moral code of the Covenant or transgressing).Christian: Humans have the ability (free will) to choose between good and evil (obeying or disobeying God, complying with the moral code of the Covenant or transgressing) Muslim: Angels exist who are the servants, and sometimes messengers of God.Christian: Angels exist who are the servants, and sometimes messengers of God Muslim: Satan (shaitan) exists, as well as evil spirits who follow him; they are the enemies of humanity.Christian: Satan exists, as well as evil spirits who follow him; they are the enemies of humanity. Muslim: Divinely revealed scriptures exist which are the primary source of religious knowledge. The Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad and it is the final scripture given to man.Christian: Divine scriptures exist which are the primary source of religious knowledge; revelation in this department is finished (there are no more biblical books yet to be revealed) Muslim: Miracles occur on occasion.Christian: Miracles occur on occasion. Muslim: If a person errs or transgresses, God may forgive them, if they sincerely repent.Christian: If a person errs or transgresses, God may forgive them, if they sincerely repent. Muslim: Prophets brought spiritual instruction.Christian: Prophets brought spiritual instruction. Muslim: There are similarities between the Quranic and biblical version of many stories, such as Adam and Eve, Moses and the children of Israel, etc.Christian: There are similarities between the Quranic and biblical version of many stories, such as Adam and Eve, Moses and the children of Israel, etc. Muslim: At the time of the end of the world, Jesus Christ will come again.Christian: At the time of the end of the world, Jesus Christ will come again. Muslim: Jesus Christ was born to the virgin Mary.Christian: Jesus Christ was born to the virgin Mary. Consequently, you've already stated exactly what many Christians state concerning God and creation when you said the following:
Checkmate writes: Muslims believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only God {Allah/Allaah} are all around us. The God of Islaam repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God). For example, one could take your sentences above and state the exact same thing while substituting Christians for Muslims, etc...
Mr. Ex Nihilo imitating Checkmate's post writes: Christian's believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only Triune God {Father/Son/Holy Spirit} are all around us. The God of Christianity repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God). Now, of course, your next statement has got me curious.
Checkmate writes: One who even reads the English transaltion (transaltion has its limitations) of Qur'aan can find this himself, since nothing is preconditioned such as: 'you have to believe it' or "it cannot be explained" or 'man can't understand this' etcetera. Could you explain this further please? I'd like to know exactly what you're saying here. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-19-2005 11:25 AM This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-19-2005 11:28 AM
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Mr. Ex Nihilo Member (Idle past 1359 days) Posts: 712 Joined: |
Faith writes:
Gad, you're brilliant. Mind like a steel trap. Actually, I'd say it's more like a mind caught in a steel trap than anything else. Legend, do you find it odd that Faith is agreeing with you on these points regarding the Scriptures as being the sole reliable source for a Christians understanding of God? Like I said before, welcome to the wonderful world of fundamentalist Christianity -- because you're preaching it right now brother.
Faith writes: Just wanted to say that. Well then, Faith, maybe you could answer the questions I posted earlier in message 45.
Faith writes: I probably disagree with you somewhere or other, but not here. Actually, here's one of the propositions that I posted in message 45.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: Why do many modern theologians believe that the ancient Israelites practiced some form of henotheism.
Psalm 82:1 writes:
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment. In henotheism, one's focus is on one god, and the henotheist doesn't deny the existence of the other gods. Henotheism is applicable to Hinduism, Isis worship, and the worship of Julian the Apostate, among others. The Amarna period of Egyptian history, headed by Pharaoh Akhenaten and his Great Wife Nefertiti, is often descibed as monotheistic, but henotheism fits better since Akhenaten didn't deny the existence of the other gods. Even in our modern era, many Christians will admit that the adversary himself is called the "god of this age" implying the existence of other "gods" in contrast to the Supreme God. Furthermore, there are Christians that have concluded that the other "pagan gods" of the past are actually "fallen angels" just like the adversary himself. In this instance, if they are concluding that these "pagan gods" were in some way "real", would they not be concluding that that they "believe in Ammon-Ra because of the Bible."? I'd also like to hear your thoughts on other questions I noted in message 45 if you would be so kind to respond to them. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-19-2005 11:09 AM This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-19-2005 11:14 AM
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