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Author Topic:   Omniscience of Divine Being.
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5934 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 91 of 95 (209391)
05-18-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by lfen
05-18-2005 1:25 PM


Re: Re-cap of my discombobulated thoughts...
ifen
So my question is what sort of reality do feelings report? And to who do they report?
Like the other senses feeling reports those sensations that best explain the reports that an imperfect nervous system conveys.This would be similar to the illusions that are present in our visual system.It reports of reality but the reality reported is only that which is necessary and sufficient for the individual to navigate their way through life in most cases.

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 Message 90 by lfen, posted 05-18-2005 1:25 PM lfen has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 777 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 92 of 95 (209463)
05-18-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by lfen
05-18-2005 1:25 PM


Re: Re-cap of my discombobulated thoughts...
Keep in mind that although I work from a naturalist position that I don't hold that naturalism is sufficient nor is it my goal to reduce everything to a naturalist explanation or description.
Okay
Phantom limb sensation is one but although I believe the accounts on phantom limb I've not had a limb amputated so haven't personally experienced it.
If you have a phantom limb sensation, that feeling is very much real. That is all I am saying about feeling. If you experience a dream, that dream is a reality regardless of whether it corresponds to anything physical. If you feel angry about something that didn't happen, this doesn't change the reality of the fact that you felt angry.
So my question is what sort of reality do feelings report? And to who do they report?
The feelings do not report a reality; they are a reality whether caused by the physical reality or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by lfen, posted 05-18-2005 1:25 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by lfen, posted 05-18-2005 10:15 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 93 of 95 (209525)
05-18-2005 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Hangdawg13
05-18-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Re-cap of my discombobulated thoughts...
Hangdawg wrote:
It is my belief that consciousness opens up a kind of new dimension of reality, the spiritual, and it is from this dimension that real power to determine the future comes from. Sidlined might argue that because this "new dimension" is dependant upon the physical world for existence that it is really just an illusion. To this have two thoughts. How can something you feel be an illusion? If you feel it, then it must be real.
And then later on Hangdawg wrote:
The feelings do not report a reality; they are a reality whether caused by the physical reality or not.
Okay, so where are you going with this? Something about being conscious and feelings leading to determining our future? How do feelings being a reality in themselves work in this?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-18-2005 6:22 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-19-2005 2:01 PM lfen has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 777 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 94 of 95 (209694)
05-19-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by lfen
05-18-2005 10:15 PM


Re: Re-cap of my discombobulated thoughts...
I see how those two quotes of mine look like a contradiction. When I said, "How can something you feel be an illusion? If you feel it, then it must be real," I meant the feeling itself cannot be an illusion, though the thing that caused the feeling can.
Okay, so where are you going with this? Something about being conscious and feelings leading to determining our future? How do feelings being a reality in themselves work in this?
Because, if you are to have real power to determine the future, you have to get outside the cause and effect chain of the physical reality. It is like floating down the river in a canoe without a paddle. If the river takes you where you wanted to go anyway, then you think you have power to determine, but if it doesn't take you where you want to go, then you think you are powerless. To truly have power to determine your course, you have to get outside the canoe and push. Perhaps consciousness, being on a different plane of reality allows us to step outside of the boat and take charge of our destiny.
The pure naturalist would say that this is nonsense because consciousness is created and governed by physical events, so you are really not stepping outside the cause/effect chain. He believes that we are nothing more than the sum of our physical parts.
But since conscious experience is real and yet cannot be described in terms of the rest of the physical reality (except by metaphor), and since it allows us to transcend time a little bit by remembering the past and understanding future effects of our actions, I am suggesting that conscious experience might allow us to have real power to determine the future.
Once we stop looking at the paradox of freewill in a universe where God knows the future as a purely physical one, perhaps it will become less of a paradox. God obviously does not dwell in the physical. He is a transcendant Spirit. And we too, as I have suggested, do not dwell entirely in the physical.
If, as in the venn diagram example, our consciousness is a little circle inside God's consciousness, which is the set of all consciousness, then perhaps what we feel God feels. As you have said before, God does not see and is not seen, but is "seeing" (or perhaps all three). So if we can share feelings with God, then perhaps we can also share his power. When we make a decision, the power comes on loan from God, the action comes from our physical body, and our will may or may not be in congruity with God's.
I hope that made at least a little sense...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by lfen, posted 05-18-2005 10:15 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by lfen, posted 05-19-2005 2:25 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 95 of 95 (209698)
05-19-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hangdawg13
05-19-2005 2:01 PM


Re: Re-cap of my discombobulated thoughts...
Well, Hangdawg,
I really would like your thoughts on Roberts' book The Experience of No Self. You are coming so close to the nondual formulation but are trying to maintain dualist dogma such as free will existing within phenomenality, or that you as consciousness are your body, mind, and conditioning.
If we take consciousness as spirit and assume phenomenen arise out of consciousness. Then consciousness is outside of cause and effect and observing it. Your venn diagram is also close to the nondual example of individual being as a wave in the ocean. The wave thinks it will die on the beach but it was water along and will remain water just in a different form.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-19-2005 2:01 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
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