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Author Topic:   Should we let Bill Frist & Co. change the rules of the senate ?
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 31 of 256 (210499)
05-23-2005 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
05-21-2005 11:54 AM


If it's fixed, why is it relative?
Phatboy writes:
quote:
it would seem, are in favor of legislation of conservative fixed morality
I can see no clearer example of the falsity of this statement than the so-called "culture of life" claim put forward by Bush and the other Republicans.
If abortion is not allowed because "all life is precious," then why do we have the death penalty? It would seem that it's all relative...whether or not life is precious depends upon the circumstances.
For all Bush's crowing about how Schiavo needed to be saved, why did Bush sign the "Futile Care Law" that had the life-sustaining technology keeping a baby alive, resulting in its death?
The idea that Republicans...or anybody, for that matter...believe in a "fixed morality" and not a "relative" one is naive in the extreme.
Everybody's morality is relative. Nobody lives up to fixed absolutes. Nobody can.
It helps, however, to understand that you are functioning with a relative morality so that you can discuss the various scenarios that have us make one choice when previously we made another one.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4230 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 32 of 256 (210579)
05-23-2005 12:56 PM


Petition!
For any who care. It may not matter but it will only take a minute to sign the petition.
About MoveOn Political Action

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 33 of 256 (210612)
05-23-2005 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jazzns
05-23-2005 12:56 PM


Re: Petition!
"The Senate must oppose the "nuclear option" to eliminate the filibuster, and preserve the checks and balances that have kept our courts fair and independent for centuries."
ROFL!!
Anyone with a basic knowledge of civics knows that the filibuster has NOTHING TO DO with checks and balances. Checks and balances has to do with each branch checking on the other 2 branches (except of course for the judicairy, who is above being checked and balanced and don't you dare excercise that constitutional right Congress!).
Ya'll are reaching.
/southern drawl off

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1662 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 34 of 256 (210647)
05-23-2005 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tal
05-23-2005 2:02 PM


Re: Petition!
Anyone with a basic knowledge of civics knows that the filibuster has NOTHING TO DO with checks and balances.
arguable, but i see what you mean. it is generally viewed as a way to prevent mob-rule in the senate. which is a sort-of check.
except of course for the judicairy, who is above being checked and balanced and don't you dare excercise that constitutional right Congress!
not true at all. the judicial branch can only check the other branches, it doesn't do anything else on its own. it doesn't make the laws, it just tosses out the ones that are bad.
similarly, the constitution can be amended by congress, which is a check and balance of the judicial branch. don't like how they handle the constitution? congress can change it.
of course "Anyone with a basic knowledge of civics knows" that.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sfs
Member (Idle past 2852 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 35 of 256 (210650)
05-23-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by paisano
05-18-2005 11:33 PM


quote:
AFAIK, the filibuster is a long-standing tradition and is codified in current Senate rules - but is subject to change. I am not certain of the procedures. If you have neutral references, please cite them.
The procedures for changing the Senate rules are not available to the Republicans, since motions to change the rules are also subject to filibuster, and therefore require a supermajority. (The supermajority is 60% to close debate, by the way, not 67%.) What Frist et al are going to have to do is declare judicial filibusters unconstitutional. Democrats will challenge this ruling, and the Republicans will then table the challenge indefinitely. That motion is not subject to filibuster, and so will carry on a simple majority vote, assuming the leadership can muster a majority. (The unconstitutionality ruling could theoretically be subject to challenge in the courts, especially since it's pretty much nuts as constitutional law, but it's hard to imagine a court intervening in the Senate's internal affairs.) At least that's my understanding of the situation.
Note also that there were, prior to the current administration, a couple of other traditional practices that permitted the minority party to block judicial nominees: the "blue slip" rule (which permitted a single senator from the nominee's home state to block a nomination) and Rule IV, which required the consent of at least one minority committee member to pass a nomination on to the full Senate. Both have been changed since 2000.

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sfs
Member (Idle past 2852 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 36 of 256 (210652)
05-23-2005 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by arachnophilia
05-23-2005 2:53 PM


Re: Petition!
quote:
similarly, the constitution can be amended by congress, which is a check and balance of the judicial branch. don't like how they handle the constitution? congress can change it.
Congress cannot amend the Constitution; only the states can do that. Congress can propose amendments.

This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4230 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 37 of 256 (210656)
05-23-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tal
05-23-2005 2:02 PM


Re: Petition!
Making it reasonably difficult to put just anyone you want into a permanent position of judicial authority? Who would want that in a free country?! SHEESH!
Here is the link again for those of you who want to sign the petition. Take 1 min to participate in your government.
About MoveOn Political Action
Thanks to Tal for showing us all why we need to care!
God Bless,

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tal, posted 05-23-2005 2:02 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 256 (210665)
05-23-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jazzns
05-23-2005 3:23 PM


The biggest threat to our liberty
is fast and efficient government.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5996 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 39 of 256 (210673)
05-23-2005 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jazzns
05-23-2005 3:23 PM


Re: Petition!
I'm here for you!

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1785 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 256 (210712)
05-23-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
05-20-2005 8:04 AM


A simple up or down vote is all that is needed, traditionally
To the contrary; traditionally a president would not even offer a candidate who did not have the support of a supermajority in the Senate.
A simple majority is neither mandated by the Constitution nor the traditional practice; what the Constitution does specifiy is that the Senate has the power to set its own procedures, and Frist's attempt to eliminate the filibuster flies in the face of those procedures, and is thus unconstitutional.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1785 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 256 (210716)
05-23-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tal
05-23-2005 2:02 PM


Anyone with a basic knowledge of civics knows that the filibuster has NOTHING TO DO with checks and balances.
In regards to the judicial filibuster, the specific procedure under consideration, this is absolutely false.
Checks and balances has to do with each branch checking on the other 2 branches
Right. In this case, this is a check on the judiciary.
except of course for the judicairy, who is above being checked and balanced
Um, no, that's what the judicial filibuster represents - a check on the judiciary.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 42 of 256 (210718)
05-23-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
05-23-2005 6:04 PM


James dobson
This is what Focus on the family e-mailed me. Kinda lets you know how they talk to their "supporters". I have bought some tapes from them so I get all the e-mails...I am not in agreement with everything they do, however.
FOCUS writes:
The debate is almost over in the battle to restore Senate tradition by ending the Democrats' unprecedented filibusters of President Bush's judicial nominees. In what could be a matter of hours, senators may be asked to vote on the "constitutional option" -- a plan to return to 51, the number of votes needed to confirm a nominee to the federal bench.
Those behind the filibusters have tried every trick in the book to paint the constitutional option as a Republican "power grab," but Focus on the Family Action Chairman Dr. James Dobson says it's all smoke and mirrors -- just the latest example of the kind of name-calling (as reported by Dr. Dobson in CitizenLink) that liberals have resorted to because they have no rational arguments to offer.
"Liberals (are) ratcheting up their rhetoric, accusing the GOP -- and me, personally -- of committing grave crimes against democracy," Dr. Dobson explains. "Colorado Sen. Ken Salazar has called me the 'antichrist of the world' for pointing out how he broke his campaign promise by supporting his party's filibusters. On the Senate floor last week Vermont's Patrick Leahy -- after wondering what planet I might be from -- accused me of 'contemptible' actions and of practicing 'religious McCarthyism' for pointing out the anti-religious bias evident in the public statements and actions of some Democratic senators."
"This kind of bluster is what is contemptible. It is just another attempt to obscure the real issue here -- that every judicial nominee with clear majority support is entitled to an up-or-down vote," Dr. Dobson adds. "Sen. Salazar, Sen. Leahy and their colleagues won't admit that, because it would jeopardize their efforts to hang on to the last bastion of liberal power, the courts. But their smokescreens must be seen through, and the constitutional option must be approved at the conclusion of this debate."
You can do your part to make that happen by calling your two U.S. senators right now -- at their Washington and local district offices -- and telling them respectfully that you want them to end the obstruction and support the constitutional option. For a list of office phone numbers for both of your senators, visit the CitizenLink Action Center and type your ZIP code into the space provided.
(Incidentally, you might be interested to know that -- despite the charges of the left -- it's hardly radical to oppose the use of filibusters to prevent up-or-down votes for judicial nominees. Back in 1968, in fact, some of the leading legal minds in the country said as much in a letter to the Senate.)
Thank you for taking the time to stand for righteousness.
Personally, I think that Christians should stay OUT of politics. Jesus never ran for office.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-23-2005 04:34 PM

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jar
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 256 (210729)
05-23-2005 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
05-23-2005 6:33 PM


For just $3.25US you too
can get your bumper sticker.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Alexander
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 256 (210752)
05-23-2005 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
05-23-2005 7:19 PM


Re: For just $3.25US you too
That sticker is the hotness. Put me in for a dozen.

'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'

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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 256 (210787)
05-24-2005 4:20 AM


What about this new agreement?
Lindsey Graham went on Hardball and said that some of the current judicial nominees are opposed by enough republicans that they won't be able to win on an up-or-down vote. He didn't say which one(s), but he says we'll know soon enough. If that's true then I suppose this agreement could be a good thing.
Once Bush sends up a religious wingnut for the SCOTUS we're gonna be right back where we are now. I can see a possible advantage to the moderates and liberals here: the general public will likely be paying more attention to nominees for the SCOTUS. If Roe v. Wade seems threatened by an extreme nominee, using the nuclear option would be much more risky for the republicans because the resulting shutdown of the Senate promised by the democrats would likely have more public support than it would now.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

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