Truthlover,
I think you've made some assumptions about my faith deviating from scriptural commands that aren't quite right. Hopefully I can address them properly to give you a more accurate picture of my faith. That said, you and I do still have some theological differences.
Truthlover writes:
Christians are always equating individuals and the church. That's what I forgot. I was talking about the church, not individuals. I believe there's always been individuals. I really like people like A.W. Tozer and Jim Elliott and consider them favored children of God, but I don't believe either of them was ever in a church. Jim Elliott probably realized that, and I suspect he would agree with me. Tozer wouldn't have, of course.
I'm not sure I follow your logic of distinguishing the church from individuals. From my understanding the universal church Christ assured would not be overcome is comprised of all spirit born individuals. Please clarify.
Truthlover writes:
Churches are places where Yeshua's statements come true. They are places where every branch bears fruit. They are places where great grace is upon everyone.
I think I agree with you here insofar as those that bear fruit are spirit born. However, I think there can be individuals attending such churches that aren't spirit born and therefore can't and don't bear fruit. I think these are the branches (individuals) the father cuts off (John 15:2) although for a time they might
appear to be a part of the church.
On the other hand, I think there can be authentic spirit born individuals (of the universal church) within a largely corrupt and disobedient local church. Revelation 3:4 illustrates this:
"Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy."
Truthlover writes:
In American churches, if an individual is extremely good and spiritual, so that you can "feel God" when he/she is around, and everyone recognizes them as kind, loving, and a "good Christian," then we all would look at that person and say, "Boy, that person must really be committed. Look how godly (s)he is."
I would agree that there are many American churches that more closely resemble social clubs than what we see the church exhorted to be in scripture. However, I don't think you've proved that they all are this way. I don't think mine is an apostate church and I've been to some others filled with believers whose lives have been radically changed for the (scriptural) better as well.
Truthlover writes:
In real churches, if an individual experiences a major transformation and becomes good and spiritual, so that you can "feel God" when he/she is around, and everyone recognizes them as kind and loving, no one says, "Boy, that person must really be committed." They say, "Yeah, well, everyone who joins those people gets like that."
In a real church, it's hard to separate the members, because to outsiders they all "feel" the same. We've been told several times that "it's like you're all one person."
Again, I think by this definition my church qualifies as a "real" church. I have many friends there that will freely articulate how God and his grace has liberated them from the life of sin they used to know. This has certainly been the case with me. I think many (not all) are pursuing the narrow and difficult road. With my own testimony I can tell you that life has never been more difficult in terms of challenges and the "difficult" commands (as you put it) I'm faced with. But by the power and grace of God life has never been more abundant and fulfilling.
Truthlover writes:
That phrase is pretty meaningless to me, because I don't see salvation as meaning "that person will go to heaven." Salvation means to me that a person has entered a new life and is being delivered ("delivered" and "saved" are the same word in Greek) from their old life and walking in the new one. Salvation, Scripturally, can also mean living eternally with God, but I don't think the NT discusses heaven very much using the word "saved" or "salvation." Usually, it's talking about being delivered from the old life (or sin, or self, or the flesh, or whatever you want to call it).
To those that have been delivered Jesus assures the following (John 10:28-30):
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
Can you establish scripturally why you don't think this verse, promising eternal life (presumably in heaven), doesn't apply to some that have been delivered? Personally I think it does and, therefore, all the have been saved or delivered are promised eternal life in heaven.
Truthlover writes:
Why should it bother a disciple that most churches are false? Yeshua said that the path to life was narrow and few find it. Forty million "saved" people in the US are hardly a few.
You're point here is well taken and I agree, most churches are false
. This doesn't bother me all that much as I understand this is how things are destined to play out.
Truthlover writes:
This is all semantics, anyway, because everyone believes people fall away.
I don't think everyone believes this. I've certainly read views from various commentators articulating this point, I just haven't found them scripturally sound.
Truthlover writes:
You will say they were never saved, in order to preserve your doctrine that salvation can't be lost,
As God is my witness, I could care less about the preservation of my doctrine as it is being refined regularly anyway through consistent scripture study. If you'd like to offer scripture that you think suggests salvation can be lost by all means do so.
Truthlover writes:
This is pretty circular, don't you think. You say we don't see Yeshua urging the Pharisees to follow his commands, but you also say that whatever commands he did urge upon them were to condemn them.
I don't think my arguement was circular as I didn't say he urged any commands upon them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he ever urged commands upon them as a group. He did to certain Pharisaic individuals like Nicodemus (John 3). I was referring to those that stood near trying to trick and condemn him which I think were representative of the group as a whole.
Truthlover writes:
Sure, Yeshua didn't bother wasting words on people he knew were against him. You don't have to be the Son of God to do that. I speak differently to people vehemently opposed to me, too.
I still don't understand why you think certain scriptural truth is to be valued as a pearl and therefore, shouldn't be shared with just anyone. Please clarify. Considering all scriptural truth is given and revealed to us freely, why shouldn't we freely give it all away, except to those that appear argumentative? Also, what is your scriptural mechanism for determining which scriptural truth should be valued less than a pearl?
Truthlover writes:
However, to those who were not yet his disciples, but who were also not yet his enemies, he did urge commands, and he did it often.
True, but doesn't this echo the parable of the sower in Mark 4 where some seed fell on the rocky ground and some of among the thorns? Just because Jesus gave commands to those that weren't his disciples, doesn't necessarily mean he didn't think some of them couldn't obey them. Indeed, he knew full well that some that heard his commands would not be invited to him in the spiritual sense that John 6:37 describes, and therefore, without his power could not obey what he was he commanding.
Truthlover writes:
American churches are full of people just like that rich man. They love Jesus and run to him. They bow their knee to him and ask him questions. When the commands he gives them are easy enough for them, they do them. When they are too hard, they go away sad.
However, they go away sad to people who believe the things you are writing, and those people tell them that they can continue to be happy without obeying that difficult command.
I am not telling
all people that they can't obey the difficult commands. Only the unregenerated. For apart from and without Jesus they can do nothing where these scriptural commands are concerned.
On the other hand, I won't hesitate to exhort spirit born believers to obey the difficult commands. I think it is impossible for an authentic Christian to experience the abundant life Jesus promised without paying heed to all that Jesus commands, not just the
easy ones. Personally, I can't even do what might be considered easy without the power of the Holy Spirit.
Respectfully
[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 09-13-2003]
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