Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,814 Year: 3,071/9,624 Month: 916/1,588 Week: 99/223 Day: 10/17 Hour: 6/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Whys of Evolution
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 31 of 108 (210900)
05-24-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
05-24-2005 2:05 PM


Re: An act of faith
GDR writes:
(It's very similar to Buddhism anyway.)
See? You don't know the first thing about it and it is because you didn't grow up with it. What you just said is the equivilence of "Christianity is very similar to cannibalism."
Sorry about the cannibalism thing, guys. I watched Hannibal and DOTD a few nights ago.
Antony Flew who over most of his life has been a major spokesperson for Atheism, was raised by a Methodist minister. He has more recently decided that he believes in Deism. Madalyn O'Hair had a son who made a decision to become a Christian.
Remember what I said about pointing out isolated cases?
What we believe about the metaphysical, whether we choose to believe or not, is a conscious decision in the same way that we decide who to vote for in an election.
Well, no wonder why a homophobic racist warmonger got into office twice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 2:05 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 32 of 108 (210902)
05-24-2005 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
05-24-2005 2:31 PM


ringo316 writes:
How do you decide which deity you believe in? And what qualifies you to make that decision?
That is something personal to each individual. I find evidence of God in the nature of creation, (if I may use that word ), from religious texts, from that still small voice that is my conscience, from listening to the experiences of others etc. Of course we don't all come to the same conclusion, in the same way that we don't all vote the same way.
I don't understand why you would ask what qualifies me to make that decision. What qualifies me to vote in a particular way? I certainly am in a position to make a more informed position if I am educated about the choices available.
EZScience writes:
Not at all. I just happen to feel it is inappropriate to teach anything about 'religious values' in a public school. They can get all the exposure they want if they go to church. I am not advocating eliminating exposure to religious beliefs, but rather preventing religious beliefs from corrupting the teaching of what I consider to be more objective and unbiased ways of analyzing the world around us, e.g. the scientific method, inductive reason, logic etc
Mostly EZ we are going to have to agree to disagree, as I believe that exposing kids to religious beliefs not only doesn't corrupt objective teaching but enhances it.
For that matter even if we aren't consciously teaching our views on these issues your views are being passed on to your students if only subliminally, although I would guess that it is less subtle than that.
This message has been edited by GDR, 05-24-2005 12:44 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 05-24-2005 2:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 05-24-2005 4:51 PM GDR has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 33 of 108 (210903)
05-24-2005 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by GDR
05-24-2005 2:24 PM


Re: Orientation of faith is environmentally determined
GDR writes:
I find it interesting that you think that the best way to help kids think for themselves is to keep them from being exposed to ideas that don't agree with your own.
I don't get it. What's preventing you from sending your kids to catholic school, or lutheran school, or whatever? Why do you want to teach YOUR BELIEFS (YOUR FAITH) to MY KIDS in a PUBLIC INSTITUTION?
When you deny students the opportunity to contrast Atheism with Theist religions you are then left with kids being taught Atheism or possibly Agnosticism in the public school system.
The thing is I don't ever recall learning about atheism in school. In fact, I don't recall learning about anything pertaining to any faith at all.
How would you like it if they invite rabbi to start teaching Jewish faith to your kids in school?
Try to see the big picture, dude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 2:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 3:55 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 34 of 108 (210905)
05-24-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by coffee_addict
05-24-2005 3:46 PM


Re: Orientation of faith is environmentally determined
GAW-Snow writes:
The thing is I don't ever recall learning about atheism in school. In fact, I don't recall learning about anything pertaining to any faith at all.
Just my point. The only religion that you got out of school was Atheism. If you had recieved instruction on other religions you might have a more rounded view and a happier face as your signature. )
GAW-Snow writes:
How would you like it if they invite rabbi to start teaching Jewish faith to your kids in school?
I'd welcome it. Bring in a Mullah. Bring in Richard Dawkins. I want my kids, (they're all adults by the way) to have as much information as possible.
I tend to think that is the big picture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by coffee_addict, posted 05-24-2005 3:46 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by coffee_addict, posted 05-24-2005 3:57 PM GDR has replied
 Message 36 by coffee_addict, posted 05-24-2005 4:01 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 38 by EZscience, posted 05-24-2005 4:28 PM GDR has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 35 of 108 (210908)
05-24-2005 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
05-24-2005 3:55 PM


Re: Orientation of faith is environmentally determined
GDR writes:
Just my point. The only religion that you got out of school was Atheism. If you had recieved instruction on other religions you might have a more rounded view and a happier face as your signature. )
You forgot my other question. What's preventing you, and other people like you, from sending your kids to religion school? In other words, why should my tax dollars pay for your kids' religious education?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 3:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 4:51 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 36 of 108 (210909)
05-24-2005 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
05-24-2005 3:55 PM


Re: Orientation of faith is environmentally determined
List of religions and spiritual traditions - Wikipedia
The above link is a list of world religions. Having been through years of formal education (I'm still working on the big jackpot of all degrees), that list looks like 8 years of college to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 3:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 37 of 108 (210918)
05-24-2005 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by GDR
05-24-2005 2:24 PM


Atheism is NOT a belief.
GDR writes:
Atheism is a belief that says there is no Intelligent Designer or any other form of supreme being.
No. Atheism is not a belief. It's a lack of belief. It's what you end up with if you don't see any convincing evidence for whatever people tell you they believe in. Do you believe in the Hindu pantheon? I don't, because there is no evidence such a pantheon exists, so there's no reason for me to believe in it. Same thing with the Christian God. Same thing with any god or gods. I do not believe in a god of any kind. That's what atheism means. It seems I cannot stress it enough: it's not a belief.
GDR writes:
When you deny students the opportunity to contrast Atheism with Theist religions you are then left with kids being taught Atheism or possibly Agnosticism in the public school system. If we want the kids to truly think for themselves then let's give them the tools and the information to do just that.
I wonder what that's like, "kids being taught Atheism". Must be a very short curriculum: "OK kids, listen. There is no god. That's it. See you at graduation."
No, but seriously, I agree with you that it would be a good idea to tell students about all kinds of religions and other schools of thought, and science as well. They will find out what works for them. But they should be taught well, meaning no hidden agenda's or pseudo-science in science class and no pretention of science in religious class.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 2:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by EZscience, posted 05-24-2005 5:06 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 5:33 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 38 of 108 (210921)
05-24-2005 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
05-24-2005 3:55 PM


Re: Orientation of faith is environmentally determined
gdr writes:
I want my kids, (they're all adults by the way) to have as much information as possible.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, starting with what constitutes 'information'.
To me, 'information' is like some form of evidence for something.
It has to be concrete, tangible, and objectively assessable in some way or it isn't 'information'.
Religion is all mythology, so I don't view it to contain any 'information' in the strict sense - only stories, fables, and suppositions.
And I don't have any direct teaching responsibilities, so you don't have to worry about me subliminially spreading atheism .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 3:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 108 (210926)
05-24-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
05-24-2005 3:42 PM


GDR writes:
I don't understand why you would ask what qualifies me to make that decision.
As GAW-Snow has pointed out, you know nothing about Taoism, so how are you qualified to choose another religion in its place?
What qualifies me to vote in a particular way?
Voting is a collective decision. Your vote is not solely responsible for the decision.
What if you vote for the "wrong" party? So what? But if you choose the wrong god(s)....
I certainly am in a position to make a more informed position if I am educated about the choices available.
But you don't get that education in school.
There is a place in our schools for teaching how the government works, etc. But our schools don't tell us what political choices are available, do they? That's the role of the media.
Similarly, our schools should not tell us what religious choices are available. That's the role of the church and the home.
If politics or religion find their way into the schools, it is inevitable that some viewpoints will be left out. If some choices are left off the ballot, how does that make you more informed?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 3:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 40 of 108 (210928)
05-24-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by coffee_addict
05-24-2005 3:57 PM


Re: Orientation of faith is environmentally determined
GAW-Snow writes:
You forgot my other question. What's preventing you, and other people like you, from sending your kids to religion school? In other words, why should my tax dollars pay for your kids' religious education?
I suppose that I could have sent kids through the private school system but I chose not to. I believe that a public school system should present kids with a balanced approach to knowledge and to life. I don't happen to be one of them, but there are others on this forum that don't agree with evolution, so why should their tax dollars pay for their kids to learn about evolution?
I believe that teaching kids about the beliefs of others promotes tolerance. The greater understanding we have of the beliefs of others, the greater respect and tolerance we will have for others, and just maybe we'll all learn to get along better.
Sorry about getting personal, but let's use you for example. You said yourself that you received no religious training of any kind in school. Your posts indicate to me intolerance for those who don't agree with your world and religious views.
You asked me how I would feel about having a Jewish Rabbi instruct my kids. You assume that because I have religious beliefs that I would not want my kids being exposed to other faiths. Why would you assume this to be the case? I want my kids exposed to all points of view. Do you?
You are extremely disdainful of those who didn't vote the way you did. Here is a quote from one of your earlier posts:
"Well, no wonder why a homophobic racist warmonger got into office twice."
As I said I believe that children are better rounded, more tolerent and better equipped to make choices in their life when they are exposed to as many points of view as possible.
This message has been edited by GDR, 05-24-2005 01:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by coffee_addict, posted 05-24-2005 3:57 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Alasdair, posted 05-24-2005 4:58 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 47 by coffee_addict, posted 05-24-2005 5:55 PM GDR has replied

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5749 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 41 of 108 (210929)
05-24-2005 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by GDR
05-24-2005 4:51 PM


Re: Orientation of faith is environmentally determined
Sure, teach all points of view - but fortunately, not all points of view are equal. Especially in the science classroom, the only "point of view" that makes sense in light of the evidence is evolutionary theory. If your kids don't believe in it, too bad. What if they didn't believe in gravity or a round earth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 4:51 PM GDR has not replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 42 of 108 (210931)
05-24-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Parasomnium
05-24-2005 4:16 PM


Re: Atheism is NOT a belief.
You know, I think your message title would make a good title for a whole new thread. This happens repeatedly - theists accusing atheists of trying to spread some sort of anti-religious belief structure. And it extends to their attacks on evolutionary theory. They keep trying to say that 'Darwinism' constitutes a 'belief' that is antithetic to Christian beliefs when it's just not true. I think it is a 'trap' strategy for them, because if they get you to play that game, then you are debating by their rules and not by the rules of science they seem unable to accept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Parasomnium, posted 05-24-2005 4:16 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 5:23 PM EZscience has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 43 of 108 (210932)
05-24-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
05-24-2005 4:51 PM


ringo316 writes:
Voting is a collective decision. Your vote is not solely responsible for the decision.
What if you vote for the "wrong" party? So what? But if you choose the wrong god(s)....
Also the result of voting impacts the collective, a decision on faith impacts the individual.
When I, or anyone else, makes a decision on faith we make it with what we know. This is true of virtually all decisions that we make, whether it be how we vote, the mortgage we choose, career, or whatever. When it comes to faith none of us have the same knowledge base. I never professed to be knowledgeable about Taoism. If I waited until I knew everything about any decision that I had to make I'd never make one.
One of the roles of a school is to help us make those choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 05-24-2005 4:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 05-24-2005 5:33 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 44 of 108 (210935)
05-24-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by EZscience
05-24-2005 5:06 PM


Re: Atheism is NOT a belief.
EZScience writes:
You know, I think your message title would make a good title for a whole new thread. This happens repeatedly - theists accusing atheists of trying to spread some sort of anti-religious belief structure. And it extends to their attacks on evolutionary theory. They keep trying to say that 'Darwinism' constitutes a 'belief' that is antithetic to Christian beliefs when it's just not true. I think it is a 'trap' strategy for them, because if they get you to play that game, then you are debating by their rules and not by the rules of science they seem unable to accept. You know, I think your message title would make a good title for a whole new thread. This happens repeatedly - theists accusing atheists of trying to spread some sort of anti-religious belief structure. And it extends to their attacks on evolutionary theory. They keep trying to say that 'Darwinism' constitutes a 'belief' that is antithetic to Christian beliefs when it's just not true. I think it is a 'trap' strategy for them, because if they get you to play that game, then you are debating by their rules and not by the rules of science they seem unable to accept.
I don't think that atheists are trying to spread an anti-religious belief structure. I'm just saying that when education is presented without giving other world views atheism is the world view that remains in the void that is left.
Darwinism is scientific up to the point that it is presented in such a way that it could only have occurred without any divine impetus. It should be presented in that light.
Personally I find science fascinating. In the end, I am interested in the truth. There is no doubt that we all have our "blik" (as per Antony Flew) and as a result we find truth through the prism of our beliefs, but I do try and be open to changing my views based on new information.
As for trying to trap you, I'm afraid I'm not that clever. (I'm leaving myself wide open there.
Actually, I became interested in this forum to gain scientific knowledge. I had no intention of getting embroiled in a debate like this. Oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by EZscience, posted 05-24-2005 5:06 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by EZscience, posted 05-24-2005 9:16 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 108 (210939)
05-24-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by GDR
05-24-2005 5:07 PM


GDR writes:
If I waited until I knew everything about any decision that I had to make I'd never make one.
Isn't it interesting? What some people consider the most important decision they'll ever make - the choice of a religion - is one of the easiest to make. It just goes to show what several people have been saying here - most people choose a "faith" based on what or who is around them, not based on what's inside them.
People do base their faith on incomplete knowledge - even in a society like ours, where the information is readily available. Putting religious indoctrination in the schools will not make them use the information in a different way.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 5:07 PM GDR has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024