Should we let Bill Frist & Co. change the rules of the senate ?

Agreed. This was probably the best the Dems could swing. I was almost looking forward to a showdown-I don't think the Democrats could muster enough votes to keep the senate rules as they are, but it would have been close. And unfortunately I don't think the promised 'obstructionist ' tactics would have had much support.Like Berb said, this is all about the Supreme Court, and I guess the democrats kept themselves in the game at least.

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'Most temperate in the pleasures of the body, his passion was for glory only, and in that he was insatiable.'

Again, the issue is the Supreme Court--in the long run. The Supreme Court is crucial for future ideological showdowns.

Just an update. As of 2pm Eastern, Senator Frist hasn't approved the deal and according to his office, he still wants all of the nominees to get an up or down vote.This message has been edited by Tal, 05-24-2005 02:05 PM

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I may not agree with what you say, But I will die defending your right to say it.
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Actually the line was:"So this is how LIBERTY dies - with thunderous applause."Here's an article about it.
People will read whatever they want into things, I tell you.
They think that Lucas is trying to send some message about 9/11.

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Star Wars III: Crisis in America

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In the Media Hollywood Strikes Back
Rolls Out Big-Budget 9/11 Truth Movie.

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by John J. Albanese
May 22, 2005

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I couldn’t believe my eyes. Star Wars III — Revenge of the Sith is a 9/11 truth movie.

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(For those who do not want to know the plot of this film, read no further.)

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It came as a complete surprise. My wife and I went to see this film somewhat reluctantly, and with some misplaced sense of obligatory nostalgia for a franchise that harkened back to our youth. How could we NOT? But, we fully expected to be moderately entertained at best, with perhaps some of the familiar lingering disappointment we felt over the last two installments in the series.

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What we found instead was a big-budget major blockbuster of a film that had me literally squirming in my seat with the desire to jump up and scream at the audience, Are you people getting this!!!?

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Yes, this movie goes where no major commercial film has gone before. This film dares to suggest that 9/11 was an inside job.

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We have all heard the rumors that this film draws some interesting parallels between the Bush administration and the dark side of government depicted in this film. Seeking to strengthen security during wartime, Chancellor Palpatine persuades the Senate to give up civil liberties.

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"So this is how liberty dies to thunderous applause," Senator Amidala laments.

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There are the obvious lines.

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Darth Vader: If you’re not with me, you’re my enemy.

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Samuel L. Jackson emotionally declaring that the Chancellor controls the Senate and Judges, and is therefore too powerful and dangerous to the republic.

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And it appears that the Press agrees:

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Revenge of the Sith," it turns out, can also be seen as a cautionary tale for our time -- a blistering critique of the war in Iraq, a reminder of how democracies can give up their freedoms too easily, and an admonition about the seduction of good people by absolute power. Some film critics suggest it could be the biggest anti-Bush blockbuster since "Fahrenheit 9/11." - Washington Post

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George Lucas himself makes no mystery of his sentiments:

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"In ancient Rome, 'why did the senate, after killing Caesar, turn around and give the government to his nephew?' Lucas said. 'Why did France, after they got rid of the king and that whole system, turn around and give it to Napoleon? It's the same thing with Germany and Hitler.

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"You sort of see these recurring themes where a democracy turns itself into a dictatorship, and it always seems to happen kind of in the same way, with the same kinds of issues, and threats from the outside, needing more control. A democratic body, a senate, not being able to function properly because everybody's squabbling, there's corruption."

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It is just one of those re-occurring things. I hope this doesn't come true in our country. Maybe the film will awaken people to the situation of how dangerous it is.' - George Lucas

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But is this all the film tells us?

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It seems that the critics are all but ignoring the obvious 9/11 parallels.

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This film very clearly depicts an attack upon the Republic by a splinter group within the government, upon orders by the Chancellor. Yes, it is an inside job.

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After this attack, and with the Jedi Knight’s enclave still burning in the distant horizon of the Republic’s capital, the Chancellor convenes an emergency session of the Senate, which seems eerily similar to Bush’s post-9/11 address to Congress, in which he vows to tirelessly hunt down the culprits, and speaks of the need for empire - as a means towards an end — as a means towards attaining Freedom and Security.

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But, or course, the real culprits have the reigns of power. And the critics will not touch it. As always, it is left the the American public to connect the dots.

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George Lucas had the entire plot of Star Wars laid out 30 years ago, so Revenge of the Sith is not some kind of truth movie.However, he also says that the comparison between current events is interesting, though unplanned.

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this is all about the Supreme Court, and I guess the democrats kept themselves in the game at least.

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Basically, if the filibuster had been lost, then Jim Dobson of the Family Research Council would have chosen the next supreme Court justice.Does anyone see cracks appearing in the great Republican stronghold that is Congress?First this filibuster thing, now the vote in the house on stem cell research.I think the extremists might be losing a bit of their stranglehold on the more moderate factions. I smell mutiny.

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Basically, if the filibuster had been lost, then Jim Dobson of the Family Research Council would have chosen the next supreme Court justice.

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Does anyone see cracks appearing in the great Republican stronghold that is Congress?

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That's better than Teddy Kennedy choosing the next Supreme Court justice. And it's not cracks in the Republican stronghold. It's called compromise, ever hear of that?That means putting ideology aside to further the people's business eventhough republicans have the power to move forward anyway. Democrats won't remember this compromise when they are in power.

Monk writes:

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That's better than Teddy Kennedy choosing the next Supreme Court justice.

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Really? At least Ted Kennedy wouldn't pick someone who'd deny rights to minorities, allow Alzheimer's patients to waste away unnecessarily, deny abortions to little girls who've been raped by their fathers and turn America into a fundamentalist theocracy.

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And it's not cracks in the Republican stronghold. It's called compromise, ever hear of that?

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What are you on about here? The compromise was between moderate republicans and moderate democrats. Ever heard of moderates? Those are people who aren't extremists like James Dobson.The "cracks" schraf spoke of may exist among democrats just as well as among republicans, but it's the reactionary (that means 'conservative extremists', in case you've never heard the word) republicans who have all the power right now. Moderate republicans have now flexed a bit of muscle and stopped the power grab by the reactionaries - at least for the moment. Schraf seems to feel that this may be a harbinger of good things. I hope she's right.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

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Really? At least Ted Kennedy wouldn't pick someone who'd deny rights to minorities, allow Alzheimer's patients to waste away unnecessarily, deny abortions to little girls who've been raped by their fathers and turn America into a fundamentalist theocracy.

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Ok, you want to play that game. Ted Kennedy would allow killing babies as they are being born, stuff more billion dollar pork barrel projects down his Massachusetts gullet, eliminate religious freedoms, destroy corporate America and turn the US into a communist dictatorship.

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The compromise was between moderate republicans and moderate democrats.

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Glad we agree that there was a compromise.

Monk writes me:

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Ok, you want to play that game.

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Sure, sounds like fun.

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Ted Kennedy would allow killing babies as they are being born...

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Where the hell are all these women who are having late-term abortions for convenience reasons? Do you honestly believe it ever really happens? Have you ever known a very pregnant women who was suddenly no longer pregnant but who had no newborn child?Choosing a late-term abortion is not something most women could do on a whim. This is a silly non-issue promoted by the theocons because it's emotional and sounds very dramatic. Give a bit of thought to the matter and it should be obvious that there's no there there.

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...stuff more billion dollar pork barrel projects down his Massachusetts gullet...

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What's that got to do with judicial appointments? I didn't say Kennedy'd make a great president, did I? I just said I'd prefer his SCOTUS appointments to those of Bush.But aside from that, how many senators are there that don't do pork? (Apologies to Lieberman, of course)

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...destroy corporate America and turn the US into a communist dictatorship.

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My, my. Kennedy is a communist? I didn't realize. That's a pretty serious charge, Monk, perhaps you have a bit of evidence you could offer to back it up?

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Glad we agree that there was a compromise.

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Yep. Put some gravy on that sum-bitch!

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

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Where the hell are all these women who are having late-term abortions for convenience reasons? Do you honestly believe it ever really happens? Give a bit of thought to the matter...

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They are everywhere. Women having late term abortions on a whim, doctors eager to kill babies, it’s all chaos and mayhem.I’m giving as much thought to these statements as you are. This is your game remember.

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But aside from that, how many senators are there that don't do pork? (Apologies to Lieberman, of course)

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Many do fight for constituent pork. But Teddy is the pork grand daddy, the walking talking rotund representative of largess, he is stuffed pork du jour.

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My, my. Kennedy is a communist? I didn't realize.

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Now you know. Glad I could educate you. BTW, I’ll start posting links when you begin to substantiate your claims.

What a pile of hypocritical tripe. You can't really believe all that drivel unless you have been completely brainwashed by Republican propaganda.First of all, it is the Republicans NOT the Democrats, who are continously eroding our 'freedoms'. Democrats are not trying to 'eliminate religious freedoms', just ensure that your psychotic theo-crats don't step on the freedoms of others as they pander to all their bible-thumping supporters.Secondly, CORPORATE AMERICA IS THE ENEMY. They are NOT your friends. They are manipulating and using all the phony Republican 'values' issues to try and secure an eternal flow of unending wealth at the expense of the common people in this country. I wish you could have heard John Kenneth Galbraith interviewed on Jim Lehrer's News hour last night. He said words to the effect that corporate interests now dominate the entire democratic system in this country, determining both policy and candidacy.Thirdly, ' a communist dictatorship '? It always amazes me that Republicans have the unmitigated gall to call any one else 'dictatorial' while we have a little pea-brain in the White House who doesn't know the first thing about bipartisan consultation, who listens only to his closest circle of right-wing hack advisors, and is the closest thing this country has come to a 'dictator' since it was founded.

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Secondly, CORPORATE AMERICA IS THE ENEMY. They are NOT your friends. They are manipulating and using all the phony Republican 'values' issues to try and secure an eternal flow of unending wealth at the expense of the common people in this country.

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More extreme liberal blather. You don’t know me. How do you know corporate America isn’t my friend? In fact, they are the friend of most Americans whether you like it or not.They provide jobs, security, health insurance, pensions, 401k’s, among others. But we don’t recognize any of those benefits do we. No, in your mind they are big bad capitalist who only want slave labor.Is there corruption in corporate America? Sure, as is the case in every enterprise involving humans. But if you hate America so much, move to Cuba.

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He said words to the effect that corporate interests now dominate the entire democratic system in this country, determining both policy and candidacy.

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The sky is falling chicken little and the end of civilization has arrived!

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Thirdly, ' a communist dictatorship '? It always amazes me that Republicans have the unmitigated gall to call any one else 'dictatorial' while we have a little pea-brain in the White House...blah...blah..blah

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No, what amazes me is how idealistic political hacks such as yourself choose to dream about a fantasy world where all resources are equally distributed to everyone who wants something and in proportion to their need.There's a name for that, it’s called communism. Don’t like Cuba?...move to China.

What freedoms have you, personally, lost since 911?

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I may not agree with what you say, But I will die defending your right to say it.
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Wellnow, that's the thing, isn't it. We're all of us here free right now, or we wouldn't be wasting time on online forums. None of us were vaguely Muslim-looking people that were, say, taking pictures of a reservoir on vacation, got arrested, and are now looking at deportation or Guantanamo. If there's anything that fascism has taught us (not that Bush is yet a fascist), it is those that are still relatively free must speak out for those that are not.And on another note, pregnancy is not easy. Why would you carry a baby to term only to kill it at the last possible minute unless there was a compelling medical reason? Most states have "No questions asked" laws regarding unwanted live babies dropped off at hospitals. Almost all third trimester abortions are for medical reasons - the mother's health is actually jeopardized by a third-trimester abortion, so, lacking concrete figures, I would really have to doubt that most partial-birth abortions were the result of an arbitrarily chosen abortion date.