Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 57 (9054 total)
354 online now:
jar, PaulK (2 members, 352 visitors)
Newest Member: EWolf
Post Volume: Total: 888,271 Year: 5,917/14,102 Month: 65/438 Week: 109/83 Day: 11/21 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why should I believe?
Aron-Ra
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 6 (211968)
05-27-2005 7:01 PM


Its a very simple and logical question. If you can't answer it, then I don't understand why anyone is still arguing about this.

If I could choose to believe whatever I wanted, I would probably still be a Taoist. I certainly wouldn’t have let myself become a material atheist! But I can’t choose what I will believe. I would rather not believe some of the things I do; But I had no choice but to accept everything I believe now as the most logical conclusion according to evidence that didn't require any faith to verify. Its not important to me what I believe, but it is important that I be able to show just cause for that belief. So to all proponents of evangelical Biblical creationism participating in this forum, I ask, why should I believe anything about your position, as opposed to that of Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Shaman, Shinto, Zoroastrian, or any other variant of creationism, or that of evolutionists of any faith or none?

I'm not looking for criticisms against the credibility of any other position, but for some sort of objectively-demonstrable evidence which actually indicates Biblical creationism over any other explanation.

Please try to be brief, but still give me the best answer you've got. Please answer only this one question as it was phrased, as best you can. Then we'll compare your reasons to see which ones really make sense. If you won't or can't answer, that will certainly count for something too.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 05-28-2005 12:08 AM Aron-Ra has responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 6 (212029)
05-28-2005 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aron-Ra
05-27-2005 7:01 PM


So where might this go? Comparative religions perhaps?


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Aron-Ra, posted 05-27-2005 7:01 PM Aron-Ra has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Aron-Ra, posted 05-28-2005 12:37 AM AdminJar has responded

Aron-Ra
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 6 (212045)
05-28-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
05-28-2005 12:08 AM


Well, I was actually asking for scientific evidence. But I had to list these other religions to illustrate that Biblical creationism was not a default option in the absence of evolution. Every claim I have ever yet seen which even pretends to be in support of evangelical creation has always been limited to criticisms of other positions, like "evolution can't be true because..." While I certainly could engage in a protracted discussion about comparative religions, all I'm really asking for here is some positive evidence which actually points to any aspect of the creationist's position, independant of faith, and over any other perspective.

And just to be clear, I make no assumptions. First, I need evidence that there is anything supernatural, particularly human souls. Then I need to see something that indicates some sort of paranormal effect on the natural world. Then I'll need not only evidence of a god, but evidence which only implies that specific god, and only certain sacred scriptures over others. More than anything else, I need to see some way of verifying or falsifying competing ideas to eliminate what is most likely true by weeding out those which certainly aren't, applying the scientific method to religious beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 05-28-2005 12:08 AM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 05-28-2005 12:46 AM Aron-Ra has responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 6 (212047)
05-28-2005 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Aron-Ra
05-28-2005 12:37 AM


Well, given that I really don't see how this could be promoted. You're asking for scientific evidence of the existence of a super natural being. By definition, that's going to be impossible.

I will leave this open and perhaps one of the other Adimins will promote it, or you can modify your goal so that it could be discussed as an article of faith.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Aron-Ra, posted 05-28-2005 12:37 AM Aron-Ra has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Aron-Ra, posted 05-28-2005 7:21 AM AdminJar has responded

Aron-Ra
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 6 (212078)
05-28-2005 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminJar
05-28-2005 12:46 AM


Have you heard of Ken Ham's new museum? I often encounter people claiming to have substantial scientific evidence of creation, enough that it could be believed independant of faith, and even taught in school as science. In fact, our Texas State Representative, Charlie Howard has recently introduced HB220 which would allow public high school science classrooms to teach Biblical creationism instead of evolution. Similar bills have been introduced in multiple other states in the last couple of months, as I'm sure you know. So I want to give proponents of these bills a chance to show me what "science" they intend to teach if they get their way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 05-28-2005 12:46 AM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AdminJar, posted 05-28-2005 12:23 PM Aron-Ra has not yet responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 6 (212117)
05-28-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Aron-Ra
05-28-2005 7:21 AM


You said:

And just to be clear, I make no assumptions. First, I need evidence that there is anything supernatural, particularly human souls. Then I need to see something that indicates some sort of paranormal effect on the natural world. Then I'll need not only evidence of a god, but evidence which only implies that specific god, and only certain sacred scriptures over others. More than anything else, I need to see some way of verifying or falsifying competing ideas to eliminate what is most likely true by weeding out those which certainly aren't, applying the scientific method to religious beliefs.

Well, you know and I know and everyone knows that cannot be done.

Sure, I know about what Ken is trying to do as well as many others. But we are trying to keep discussions here somewhat more structured than a brawl and pile upon. I simply see no way this thread could work.

I'm rejecting this one and closing it. You are encouraged to make a request in Message 1 if you'd like one of the other Admins to take a look at it.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Aron-Ra, posted 05-28-2005 7:21 AM Aron-Ra has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021