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Author
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Topic: Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 31 of 231 (212027)
05-28-2005 12:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 30 by robinrohan
05-27-2005 11:48 PM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
What does that have to do with anything. He says he's a Christian and that the work he's doing is based on Christian beliefs.
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934
He was doing the Christian thing! You got that? AbE:
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922
This message has been edited by jar, 05-27-2005 11:04 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 05-27-2005 11:48 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 32 of 231 (212030)
05-28-2005 12:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 31 by jar
05-28-2005 12:02 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
Well, we will see. Nothing about Jesus? Interesting. But anyway I will read on and find out. And I'm not quite sure why I am quote-mining and you are not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:02 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 12:14 AM | | robinrohan has not replied | | | Message 34 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:18 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 33 of 231 (212035)
05-28-2005 12:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 32 by robinrohan
05-28-2005 12:09 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
I would also like to know your bibliographic info.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 12:09 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 34 of 231 (212038)
05-28-2005 12:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 32 by robinrohan
05-28-2005 12:09 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
I believe Jesus is included in the above paragraph. Perhaps I was editing while you were posting. Of course I'm quote mining. The point is, almost any perspective can be supported through judicious quote mining. The facts are that Hitler was a very bad person leading a cadre of equally bad folk. To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity. The man was not nice. To say that he was not a Christian and operating from what he believed (as did a large percentage of Christians everywhere) is also both ridiculous and dishonest. Christianity has been misused time and time again for truly horrible acts. Right now it is being used to discriminate right here in the US. It's as simple as that. This message has been edited by jar, 05-27-2005 11:35 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 12:09 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
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dsv
Member (Idle past 4750 days) Posts: 220 From: Secret Underground Hideout Joined: 08-17-2004
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Message 35 of 231 (212048)
05-28-2005 12:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by jar
05-28-2005 12:18 AM
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Well said
Another simple, direct and accurate post Jar. I agree wholeheartedly, and enjoy your posts. (Sorry that this post is otherwise pointless to the discussion.)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:18 AM | | jar has not replied |
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cmanteuf
Member (Idle past 6792 days) Posts: 92 From: Virginia, USA Joined: 11-08-2004
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Message 36 of 231 (212056)
05-28-2005 2:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by jar
05-28-2005 12:18 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
Jar writes: Christianity has been misused time and time again for truly horrible acts. Just want to note that Christianity has been misused, certainly, but so have many other ideologies throughout history. Christianity happens to be the dominant religion today (approximately 1/3 of the world is at least nominally Christian, and an even larger proportion of its wealthiest and most powerful citizens are) but that does not mean it is uniquely pervertable to evil ends. Christianity has been notably abused to support evil, but so has communism, capitalism, facisim, other Abrahamic religions, Hinduism, science[1], etc. Humans will do evil things, and justify it to themselves in all sorts of bizarre ways. [1]: Gould, in Mismeasure of Man, discusses people trying desperately to come up with some sort of "Scientific" means of demonstrating that Our Type of People were superior to Their Type of People (for suitable definitions of "Us" and "Them"). My personal favorite was the man who tried to demonstrate that White People had larger cranial volumes then Black people... by measuring his personal collection of skulls, which had more male skulls than female for "Whites" and more females than males for "Blacks". Lo and behold, his study showed that Blacks had smaller cranial capacities than Whites (he only had four Asian skulls in his collection, all males, which meant that they had the largest average, but he ignored that). Chris
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:18 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 11:53 AM | | cmanteuf has not replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 37 of 231 (212102)
05-28-2005 10:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by jar
05-28-2005 12:18 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
Jar writes: To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity I did not say that nor did I intend it. What I said was that there was, I think, a historical connection between theories of evolution and Nazism. And you come back and suggest that I am trying to blame Nazism on evolution. It's not about blame. I think there is a strand of thought in Nazism that is related to ideas about evolution. As far as "quote-mining" supporting any idea, this is not the case if one does not take the quotes out of context and if one realizes that out of many speeches a politician might bring in all sorts of ideas that are only peripheral to his main philosophy. I understand that. One has to be judicious when examining these written works. I'm not denying that Hitler believed in God. And by the way, I'm still waiting for bibliographic info. for your quotes. I want to know where you got them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:18 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by Morte, posted 05-28-2005 11:16 AM | | robinrohan has not replied | | | Message 40 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:13 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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Morte
Member (Idle past 6129 days) Posts: 140 From: Texas Joined: 05-03-2004
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Message 38 of 231 (212108)
05-28-2005 11:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 37 by robinrohan
05-28-2005 10:33 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
And by the way, I'm still waiting for bibliographic info. for your quotes. I want to know where you got them. Not speaking for where jar himself found them, but if you're asking because you'd like to verify them, I believe that all can be found in either Mein Kampf ( Message 25) or The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Volumes 1 and 2, edited by Norman Hepburn Baynes ( Message 27, Message 29, and Message 31). Amazon links: Volume 1 and Volume 2.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 10:33 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 39 of 231 (212111)
05-28-2005 11:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by cmanteuf
05-28-2005 2:27 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
Absolutely. Any ideology can be misused. The problem arises when anything becomes exclusionary, then those outside can be looked down upon as lesser people.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by cmanteuf, posted 05-28-2005 2:27 AM | | cmanteuf has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 40 of 231 (212115)
05-28-2005 12:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by robinrohan
05-28-2005 10:33 AM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
In response to my saying
To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity you say:
I did not say that nor did I intend it. immediately followed by:
What I said was that there was, I think, a historical connection between theories of evolution and Nazism. I'm sorry but you just did it again. You attribute Nazism to the TOE. And then
I think there is a strand of thought in Nazism that is related to ideas about evolution. You just need to remember that there are far more quotes related to Hitler's perceptions of Christian Duty than related to the TOE. He was acting in what he believed was a Christian manner just as those suppressing Gays today believe it is their Christian duty. The quotes were from Mein Kampf and from a two volume book called The Speeches of Adolpf Hitler which has his speeches arranged chronologically.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 10:33 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 41 of 231 (212325)
05-29-2005 9:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 40 by jar
05-28-2005 12:13 PM
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Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
You attribute Nazism to the TOE. I think there is a connection. I don't deny that there were other influences, such as Christianity. But I'll get back to you about this matter whenever I finish Mein Kampf.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:13 PM | | jar has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by ringo, posted 05-29-2005 11:23 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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robinrohan writes: I think there is a connection.... But I'll get back to you about this matter whenever I finish Mein Kampf.
So, you've already come to a conclusion and you're looking for evidence to back it up? In any case, it doesn't matter if there was a connection in Hitler's mind because Hitler was a loon. The topic is "Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?" Even if Hitler said, in Mein Kampf or elsewhere, that eugenics is the logical result of Darwinism, so what? He wasn't thinking logically. The topic is about a logical connection, not a percieved connection.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 9:35 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 43 of 231 (212354)
05-29-2005 1:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
05-29-2005 11:23 AM
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You're right, I'm off topic. If I find something interesting in Mein Kampf, I'll start a new thread. I got the idea about evolutionary ideas from another book, a biography of Hitler. Unfortunately, the book does not include documentation, so I don't know exactly where the quotes from Hitler come from. So I could quote them, but I can't provide the documentation. I want to find the primary sources. But here's an example of what I'm talking about: "The basis of Hitler's political beliefs was a crude Darwinism.'Man has become great through struggle . . . Whatever goal man has reached is due to his orginality pllus his brutality . . . All life is bound up in three theses: Struggle is the father of all things, virtue lies in blood, leadership is primary and decisive.' It followed from this that 'through all the centuries force and power are the determining factors . . . Only force rules. Force is the first law.'" The words in single quotation marks are Hitler's. from "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny," by Alan Bullock, abridged edition, page 225-6. I'm interested in finding out if "crude Darwinism" is an accurate description. So there is some basis for my tentative hypothesis, which comes from this secondary source. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-29-2005 12:50 PM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-29-2005 12:52 PM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 05-29-2005 12:52 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by ringo, posted 05-29-2005 11:23 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by jar, posted 05-29-2005 2:00 PM | | robinrohan has replied | | | Message 48 by ringo, posted 05-29-2005 2:44 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Hitler was crazy
He could take any position and distort it to fit his perceived needs. He never learned much science and if you look at his actions, you'll see that he didn't understand science or engineering and so made really stupid decisions when it came to building weapons systems. Hitler distorted everything. He distorted Christianity, he distorted Evolution, he distorted the concept of Nation-State, Loyalty, Sexuality. The man was a nut. The only conclusion you can draw is that Hitler was incapable of reasoned thinking.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 1:49 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 45 of 231 (212362)
05-29-2005 2:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by jar
05-29-2005 2:00 PM
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Re: Hitler was crazy
That's right, but the question I'm addressing is whether ideas about evolution, distorted or not, influenced Nazi ideology. Also, your idea about his Christian beliefs interest me. According to this book by Bullock, he was not sincerely Christian at all.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by jar, posted 05-29-2005 2:00 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 46 by jar, posted 05-29-2005 2:24 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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