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Author Topic:   God's Prophecies: what is behind them?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 77 (212140)
05-28-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
05-25-2005 7:37 AM


Re: How do Prophecies work?
He asks, 'which of these models', and my reply was 'none of them'.
My reply is easily within topic as it can be answred by saying that option two applies to my scenario.
The pro crowd can argue that God has guided the participants. I can argue that it negates free will.
If the originator wants to limit it to these two options, which are by no means the only tow possible solutions, then that's fine. But he should have stated that argument clearly.
Brian.
Brian, imo, Phat is right. You're off topic.
1. Your statement is the equivalent of me stating that there's not one thing in science allowing for anyone to argue for the toe.
2. Your topic of your message was not about how prophecy works, but whether prophecy is real/true.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 05-25-2005 7:37 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Brian, posted 05-30-2005 5:21 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 77 (212141)
05-28-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asteragros
05-23-2005 11:08 AM


1) "Sees" the future, without compelling the happenings to fit the prophetic model (highlighting his foreseeing capability) or..
2) He controls and guides all the happenings so they will fit the prophetic model (highlighting his almightiness capability).
Having forsight, God plans his moves so as to best respond to man's actions, in order to accomplish his ultimate purpose/will.
In short what he controls/does is determined by him according to his forknowledge of what will be. Even the hardening of Pharoah's heart as per the Exodus by God himself, was due to his knowledge of Pharoah's belief, intentions and actions towards Israel and towards Jehovah, the god of Israel.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Asteragros, posted 05-23-2005 11:08 AM Asteragros has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 77 (212175)
05-28-2005 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by lfen
05-28-2005 6:03 PM


Re: Providentially Pronounced Prophecy:
When has God ever pronounced anything?
The whole book of Revelation, sometimes referred to the Apocalypse is just one example of God pronounced prophecy:
Revelation 1:1,2
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by lfen, posted 05-28-2005 6:03 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by lfen, posted 05-28-2005 9:32 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 23 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 10:38 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 77 (212239)
05-28-2005 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by lfen
05-28-2005 9:32 PM


Re: Providentially Pronounced Prophecy:
Well, that is what in the book John claims. Joseph Smith made claims, Muhammad made claims, etc and etc. All these are people claiming to have received some message. You are a person telling me the book of Revelation is God pronounced. God has not told me this. It's all the claims of people. That is my point.
My friend, you're acting like I would be chastized for (and likely again permanently suspended for) if I said "until I understand the three laws of thermodynamics, they're all a lot of hooey," all the while I refused to do a study of them. The prophecies definitely are not what you master in a reading, nor without a handle on the historical events that satisfy the fulfillment of those which have been either fulfilled, partially fulfilled or are obviously soon to be fulfilled. Like science, it becomes a very interesting and enlightening study if you set your mind to do it.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by lfen, posted 05-28-2005 9:32 PM lfen has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 77 (212247)
05-28-2005 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
05-28-2005 10:38 PM


Re: Providentially Pronounced Prophecy:
Since you bring up Revelations, and it refers to things that would have happened thousands of years ago, it's a good place to examine prophecy.
We can begin with Revelation 1:1
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Which of the prophecies came about "shortly", say within the author's lifetime?
Note that also in verse 3 of chapt 1 it says "the time is at hand." Then go to the last chapter of the book of Revelation, chapter 22 verse 10 you read that same phrase, "the time is at hand."
What these three verses are aluding to is that this book of Revelation is a prophecy of the Christian era/age and the time for that age/era is/has begun. Many evangelical scholars of Biblical prophecy, including myself believe the letter to the 7 churches of Revelation 2 and 3 are a prophecy of 7 church periods, the 7th church period being the last and being the one which exists when Jesus's 2nd advent occurs at the end of the church age. It's an extensive study in itself, but the wording of each church fits quite nicely with historical events and conditions which existed throughout the 2000 year church age of Jesus Christ and Christianity.
The seven seals, trumpets and vials then cover end time events which OT and NT prophets call the time of God's wrath and the time of persecution and tribulation to come upon the Christians world wide of the last church age, the Laodicean. The 7th seal is/becomes the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet is/becomes the events of the 7 vials of God's wrath which the world will experience before the millenial reign of Christ upon earth as per chapter 20. The apostle prophesies that the Philadelphian church, the next to last or sixth escapes that time. Many, again including myself, believe that time is quickly emerging upon the world scene.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 10:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 11:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 77 (212429)
05-29-2005 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
05-29-2005 1:46 PM


Re: Child, you're new here ...
Learn a little more about my beliefs and knowledge of the Bible before you spout off again.
The Book of Revelations is a historical political treatise dealing with events from around 1500 years ago.
Jar, you've shown your gross ignorance of Biblical interpretation and doctrine over and over. If buzsaw should be banned from science, YOU SHUR'S HECK SHOULD BE BANNED FROM BIBLICAL FORUMS. Man, you haven't even learned the basic NT fundamental established fact that there's a relationship between Jesus Christ and salvation. When the only supernatural thing in the whole book which you can accept is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, you have no reason to threaten our new creo member the way you're doing with your admin powers, just because he rightly said you need to learn the Bible before trying to figure it out.
As I've suggested in the past, imo, it appears that the only reason in the world you call yourself a Christian is to use it as leverage against creo Christians who come on this board. In your debates about the Bible, you're the athiest's best advocate, arguing that about everything the Bible says is fable.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 05-29-2005 1:46 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-30-2005 12:05 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 05-30-2005 3:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 05-30-2005 7:38 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 77 (212431)
05-29-2005 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by crashfrog
05-29-2005 7:31 PM


To the contrary; it is only the non-believer who has the capacity to understand the book for what it truly is.
Thanks Crashfrog. You made my point. You, the athiest and Jar the professed Christian argue just about alike in the Biblical forums.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by crashfrog, posted 05-29-2005 7:31 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 05-29-2005 10:24 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 77 (212477)
05-29-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
05-29-2005 10:24 PM


Like I said........

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 77 (212607)
05-30-2005 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by AdminAsgara
05-30-2005 12:05 AM


Re: Child, you're new here ...
The social and religious issues fora are for faith based discussions. Since faith is a personal issue, there is no way that someone can be banned from those particular fora for claiming a faith and beliefs that differ from others.
I suggest that all refrain from claiming that their way is the only way.
My comments weren't so much about what Jar believes about what the Bible teaches as they were as to what he's claiming about what it teaches. There's a liberal interpretation of things in the Bible and then there's the over-the-line flat out distortion and false statements about what it teaches. Imo, the sky should not be the limit for participation in Biblical theology. If there's going to be some perameters of posting conduct on behalf of secularists, there should be some limit on total nonsense in Biblical interpretation.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-30-2005 12:05 AM AdminAsgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Brian, posted 05-30-2005 10:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 47 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-30-2005 11:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 48 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 12:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 77 (212744)
05-30-2005 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
05-30-2005 12:07 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
let's look at one.
I believe that as said in the Bible, one day everyone will stand before the Judgement Seat to be assigned into sheep or goats. As you stand in line waiting for Judgement you'll be able to look around. You'll notice that the Goats are almost ALL Christians. Oh, there may be the ocassional Non-Christian like Stalin or Pol Pot but they will be the exception, not the rule. Instead, you'll see the Goats consist of the Christian Bigots that supported oppression like the "Defense of Marriage Act" and other discriminatory legislation. The Goats will include those Christians that damaged kids by keeping them in ignorance by teaching YEC, or that the Flood happened. Hurting kids like that is something that will be hard to explain. The Goats will include all those Christians that opposed Abortion but didn't work to make it unnecessary by offering to adopt, love and cherish every unwanted child.
On the other side you'll see the Sheep. They will be almost all Non-Christians. They will be atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans and Druids. Oh, there will be the ocassional Christian there, but they will be the exception, not the rule. Trixie will be there, as will Arach. The Sheep will be those who actually tried to do their best even if they failed, those who really tried to love others as they love themselves.
Jar, you show such ignorance of the NT that I really don't know where to start with you, but for a starter lets get it straight as to who, according to the NT makes it into Christ's/God's kingdome and who doesn't. Coupled with this let's get it straight as to what a Christian is according to the teachings of Christ himself and his apostles.
The word C H R I S T - - I A N has the word christ/messiah meaning the anointed one or the saviour within the word. This is the one prophesied by the OT prophets who would not only come to be the deliverer and saviour of the Jews, but the redeemer of the Gentiles also. A Christian is one who has received the christ/Jesus as saviour. John 1:12 "But as many as have received him (Jesus) to them he gave power to become the sons of God." Jesus himself said nobody would make it to the Father in Heaven except through him, according to John 14:6. So how are the list of folks you mentioned, the pagans and all going to get through when he himself said they can't except through him. I can give you a dozen other scriptures from Jesus and the apostles which basically say the same thing, and they aren't all in the Gospel of John. I believe it's in Matthew 10 where Jesus says he is the door of the sheepfold and knows his sheep and his sheep know him. He says anyone who comes in any other door but him, the door of the sheepfold is a thief and a robber. So both the "sheep" and the "brethren" are those who know and follow Jesus, plain and simple.
Now let's have a look at the Matthew 25 scripture you cited. Verse 40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Done to whom? To his "brethren." Who do you think are the "brethren" of Jesus? The "brethren" of Jesus are none other than the Christians or Christ ones, his followers. You don't believe me? Go to Matthew 12:49 and there you read that Jesus refers to his desciples as his "brethren." Also in John 1:12 which I cited above you read that those who received him are referred to as "sons" of God. Guess what? If we who received Christ are "sons of God" and Jesus is the "Son of God" that makes us who received him as lord and saviour and him brethren.
So we see, that in Matthew 25 in this special judgement of the nations that these folks who Jesus then justifies are those who during the time of persecution of his "brethren," his followers the Christians, helped those persecuted Christians and those who were hungry and naked, i.e. his brethren.
There is, according to Jesus and the other NT prophets a time of great tribulation upon the Christians in the latter days. It has begun in many nations, i.e. the Muslim nations, primarily. It was raging big time last century in athiestic and secularistic Communist nations where those nations killed nearly a hundred million of their own citizens, many of who were Christians. It rages in Viet Nam, Cambodia and other Communist nations today. There are those who are helping these happles "brethren" of Jesus, people like the Voice of the Martyrs, Franklin Graham's Samaritan's purse, Hopegivers, and multitudes of others. There are also those who hate and persecute Christ's "brethren," but call on "Allah," calling him "Lord and God," all the while persecuting his/Jesus's "brethren." During the "dark ages" it was the popes and bishops of Rome who where persecuting the Christians who refused to submit to their authority and there were also then many who harbored and helped the persecuted of Christ's true "brethren."

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 12:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 10:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 66 by Legend, posted 10-27-2005 12:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 77 (212748)
05-30-2005 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
05-30-2005 10:57 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
Yes, as I said, most Goats read it that way.
I've taken an hour to tell you what the context says. Do what you want with it, but don't expect me to take the time to respond to all your nonsense.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 10:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 11:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 77 (212754)
05-31-2005 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
05-30-2005 11:11 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
Those who teach and preach exclusion, bigotry, hate, fear and ignorance are the Goats.
It was Jesus who clearly taught exclusion as I have shown by the scriptures. Aren't you implying then that he was a hateful fearful and ignorant goat?

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 11:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 05-31-2005 12:11 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 77 (212759)
05-31-2005 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
05-31-2005 12:11 AM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
I'm implying that you have misread and perverted Jesus teachings. Jesus had no use for exclusion or bigotry.
I'm afraid we're moving off topic here, so I won't get into it further except to say that you're blatantly ignoring the verses I've cited which prove that his salvation was exclusively through Jesus himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 05-31-2005 12:11 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Andya Primanda, posted 05-31-2005 8:18 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 77 (212806)
05-31-2005 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Andya Primanda
05-31-2005 8:18 AM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
Hi Andya. To keep within the op topic, I don't think God has predetermined anyone to go to hell. It is his will that "none should perish." II Peter 3:9 To digress further on this would be off topic.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Andya Primanda, posted 05-31-2005 8:18 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
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