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Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 91 of 378 (212853)
05-31-2005 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by randman
05-31-2005 1:00 PM


Re: come on
rand, what about current non-believers that find biblical studies fascinating but haven't found anything YET to convince them of the truth of the bible as a whole.
While there are some very militant atheists out there, for the most part those I know are actually quite open-minded. If the evidence was found they would be believers.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by randman, posted 05-31-2005 1:00 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 92 of 378 (212885)
05-31-2005 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Asgara
05-31-2005 1:53 PM


Re: come on
I am not denying that unbelievers can be good scholars. I just think it works both ways.
I do think that faith more than often arises through some direct interaction with God, and not just reviewing the evidence. That is not to say the evidence does not lend credence to belief in Jesus and the gospels, but just that approaching something of that importance in one's life usually entails a larger process.
Most things are like that. I did not fall in love with my wife, nor think she fell in love with me through pure objective analysis, and I am not even sure such a thing as pure objective analyis in such a situation can exist apart from help from God.
In terms of coming to a faith relationship with God, I think God can grant a man more abilities than normal to be objective, but that humanity without such help is not impartial and objective. Objectivity is somewhat illusory, though degrees of it do exist.
For me, I just tried to determine what was real, from a philosophical perspective, and what I knew to be true. I started with the idea that I know that I exist, and then the next assumption was that I believe I exist in 2 different basic states, asleep and dreaming and awake, and the third was that reality was probably at least somewhat independent of me, which indicated to me at the time, that God was real.
That was the musings of a young man, but at this stage my own personal experience with Jesus makes such philosophical musings a moot point whether they were correct or not.
I generally think faith starts as an intuition or hunch, and then all the reasoning is there to deal with the doubts. Is this intuition real or imagined, for example? Is God really communicating via whatever, a coincidence, the Bible, a religious experience, etc,...?
I think relying exclusively on the incomplete study of history or on science, etc,...relies too much upon a level of knowledge that is woefully incomplete and primitive (compared at least in science to what we will know hundreds of years from now), and that some level of personally testing one's faith in real life is also necessary.
This message has been edited by randman, 05-31-2005 04:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Asgara, posted 05-31-2005 1:53 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by CodeTrainer, posted 06-02-2005 5:17 PM randman has replied

CodeTrainer
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 378 (213600)
06-02-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Kapyong
05-29-2005 7:49 PM


Jesus was real
You preached several faithful claims, all wrong, not backed by evidence--Iasion
Faithful to the facts.
Iasion: "The Heaven's Gate cult believed in the facts of the space-ship enough to go to martyrdom. Suicide bombers believe in their faith enough to go to martyrdom.
Me: => That is exactly the point. The apostles and the Christians contemporary with the times believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so strongly that they happily went to their martyrdom. These were people who knew for a fact with their own eyes.
Nobody dies to support what they know is a myth.
- Alan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Kapyong, posted 05-29-2005 7:49 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Brad, posted 06-02-2005 5:14 PM CodeTrainer has replied
 Message 101 by Kapyong, posted 06-02-2005 9:15 PM CodeTrainer has replied

Brad
Member (Idle past 4788 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 94 of 378 (213603)
06-02-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by CodeTrainer
06-02-2005 5:03 PM


Re: Jesus was real
That is exactly the point. The apostles and the Christians contemporary with the times believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so strongly that they happily went to their martyrdom. These were people who knew for a fact with their own eyes.
Um...are you saying that people don't blow themselves up, and heaven's gate cult didn't kill themselves? Let me rephrase what you're saying, and you correct me so I can understand.
"Although Heaven's Gate and suicide bombers kill themselves for their belief, nobody dies for what they know is a myth."
Is that what you're saying? If that's the case do we measure the most correct religion by the number of people who have died for it?
Brad

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by CodeTrainer, posted 06-02-2005 5:03 PM CodeTrainer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by CodeTrainer, posted 06-02-2005 5:54 PM Brad has replied

CodeTrainer
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 378 (213604)
06-02-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by randman
05-31-2005 4:54 PM


Re: come on
Randman: I am not denying that unbelievers can be good scholars. I just think it works both ways. ____I do think that faith more than often arises through some direct interaction with God, and not just reviewing the evidence. That is not to say the evidence does not lend credence to belief in Jesus and the gospels, but just that approaching something of that importance in one's life usually entails a larger process.
Me ==> There are those who will believe snippets from the "Gnostic gospels" contrary to all historical evidence, simply because they cannot separate themselves from their dogmatic faith that the real Gospels were not true. After all, they think in this darkness of clouded logic, how could it be true, since they cannot beileve that such things would be true?
And like swallowing anything else from Tacitus or whoever reporting on whatever in history, unless it contradicts their beloved ideas. Was Nero's burning of Rome a "rumor"? Polycarp's writings and the others that were contemporary with Jesus' day, or at least the apostles', were they "rumors"? Along with the rest of the writings of those days.
They have evidently done exactly that: believed the "Jesus-never-existed" lie, historically absolutely untenable, and when something comes around that makes them doubt their dogmatic faith in the myth, they redouble their efforts at repeating the mantras and convincing themselves and others.
- Alan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by randman, posted 05-31-2005 4:54 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by randman, posted 06-02-2005 6:29 PM CodeTrainer has not replied

CodeTrainer
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 378 (213611)
06-02-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Brad
06-02-2005 5:14 PM


Re: Jesus was real
Re: Jesus was real
(Alan That is exactly the point. The apostles and the Christians contemporary with the times believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so strongly that they happily went to their martyrdom. These were people who knew for a fact with their own eyes.
(Shadow Um...are you saying that people don't blow themselves up, and heaven's gate cult didn't kill themselves? Let me rephrase what you're saying, and you correct me so I can understand. ___"Although Heaven's Gate and suicide bombers kill themselves for their belief, nobody dies for what they know is a myth." ___Is that what you're saying? If that's the case do we measure the most correct religion by the number of people who have died for it?--Brad
Alan: ==> Those folks died, and people still die, for myths that they believe to be real. Those who had witnessed Jesus with their own eyes in his resurrected body were not shaken by threats of death, as they had seen it conqered. If it were a myth, then they would have known a myth, and would not have continued on for it. All twelve apostles kept the same story and signed their "affidavits" with their own blood, with the exception of John who suffered the boiling pot.
For each of the dozens of extra-Biblical historical references to Christ, and the hundreds that followed closely in years following, you can try to attack each one individually, as in Tacitus this, one reference that, interpolation here and there, blah blah blah, and it continues as a one-themed story that gets its force from the single centralizing fact: The resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Gospels written by the apostles signed in blood. Hundreds of false Messiahs rose and fell, even contemporaries with Josephus, and imagine that, while their existance is treated as believable, one of the Messiahs gets the Orwellian "non-person" treatment by historian revisionists. Go figure. The evidence being that the reports are not believable (by the skeptics). Go figure.
-Alan
This message has been edited by CodeTrainer, 06-02-2005 05:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Brad, posted 06-02-2005 5:14 PM Brad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Brad, posted 06-02-2005 6:37 PM CodeTrainer has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 97 of 378 (213626)
06-02-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by CodeTrainer
06-02-2005 5:17 PM


Re: come on
I agree completely. The claim that Paul never mentions the life, death, and bodily resurrection of Jesus is particularly egregious and easily refuted, but they cling to it nonetheless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by CodeTrainer, posted 06-02-2005 5:17 PM CodeTrainer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Kapyong, posted 06-02-2005 9:34 PM randman has replied

Brad
Member (Idle past 4788 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 98 of 378 (213633)
06-02-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by CodeTrainer
06-02-2005 5:54 PM


Re: Jesus was real
C'mon, now you're just being silly! You're trying to tell me that the apostles deaths prove their faith legitimate, but when someone else dies for what they believe in this proves it false? Do you not see the contradiction?!?
Brad

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by CodeTrainer, posted 06-02-2005 5:54 PM CodeTrainer has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 99 of 378 (213668)
06-02-2005 8:42 PM


Ok., if Jesus existed, give me a physical description. While locals in Jerusalem and nearby might have seen him in action, once Paul and Co. departed to distant cities, I bet the first question asked by those converting,was 'What did He look like?' While Paul may have only seen a vision, his visits to the church leaders could have answered his query. Instead of the idealised portraits of a European that all churches have persisted with, show me the Jewish Jesus.

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Brad, posted 06-02-2005 9:01 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Brad
Member (Idle past 4788 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 100 of 378 (213671)
06-02-2005 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Nighttrain
06-02-2005 8:42 PM


Well, the very first paintings of Jesus show him beardless and very dark skinned. He performs his miracles with a 'magic wand' or staff. A picture of jesus raising Lazarus from the dead shows Jesus waving his small staff over Lazarus' tomb. Sorry I can't be more descriptive, but all the pictures of him seem to resemble other "God-men," strange.
Brad

This message is a reply to:
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Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 101 of 378 (213674)
06-02-2005 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by CodeTrainer
06-02-2005 5:03 PM


Re: Jesus was real
Greetings,
quote:
That is exactly the point. The apostles and the Christians contemporary with the times believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so strongly that they happily went to their martyrdom. These were people who knew for a fact with their own eyes.
Nobody dies to support what they know is a myth.
Once more you totally fail to grasp the point.
The Heaven's gate cult killed themselves because they BELIEVED.
Suicide bombers die for what they BELIEVE.
Christian martyrs (allegedly) died because they BELIEVED.
You claim this BELIEF proves its true.
Therefore, your argument claims the Heaven's Gate cult's beliefs were TRUE.
Do you get my point yet?
Just because someone BELIEVES in something enough to die for it is not proof it is true at all.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by CodeTrainer, posted 06-02-2005 5:03 PM CodeTrainer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by randman, posted 06-02-2005 10:13 PM Kapyong has not replied
 Message 129 by CodeTrainer, posted 06-04-2005 8:16 PM Kapyong has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 102 of 378 (213675)
06-02-2005 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by randman
06-02-2005 6:29 PM


no Earthly Jesus
Greetings again,
quote:
I agree completely. The claim that Paul never mentions the life, death, and bodily resurrection of Jesus is particularly egregious and easily refuted, but they cling to it nonetheless.
Once more, randman shows he is unable to properly READ my posts or comprehend my argument.
I did NOT claim Paul never mentioned the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ.
My point is that Paul discusses these events as spiritual things which apparently took place on the astral plane.
Yes,
Paul mentions these events.
No,
Paul never describes them as earthly events.
I do not think randman will ever grasp this distinction, but for lurkers, here is the point :
Paul's comments MAY refer to an earthly being,
Paul's comments MAY refer to a spiritual being.
There are many comments in Paul which refer to a spiritual Christ (e.g. "Christ in you the hope of glory" cannot be a physical Christ inside us can it?)
But NONE of Paul's comments clearly refer to an EARTHLY Jesus.
Paul NEVER mentions :
* Mary, Joseph, the birth legends,
* the sermons and teachings of Jesus
* the healings and miracles
* the trial or Pilate
* the empty tomb.
This is the point which apologists like randman will never grasp - there is NOTHING in PAUL which is CLEARLY referring to an EARTHLY Jesus - merely vague spiritual comments about the Risen Christ.
Suppose you read Paul WITHOUT knowing anything about the Gospels or other Christian writings - what can we learn about the eatthly life of Jesus from Paul?
Nothing -
no dates,
no places,
no names or people,
no events such as the trial,
nothing about the empty tomb...
To those who are following the thread, I hope you appreciate why I gave up answering randman's preachings - he doesn't read what I write.
I claimed "Jesus never existed",
he ranted "its a lie that the majority of scholars say Jesus never existed",
getting what I said totally backwards.
I noted "someone wrote the letters of Paul, so we call that person Paul"
he ranted "its false to claim Paul never existed"
getting what I said totally backwards again.
I argued "there is nothing in Paul which clearly about an Earthly Jesus"
yet randman STILL doesn't get it - he cannot seem to grasp the distinction between a spiritual being and an earthly one.
Consider the famous passage "born of woman".
Now,
HOW MANY humans have been "born of woman" ?
i.e. HOW MANY humans were NOT "born of woman".
Obviously, every single human being in history was "born of woman".
So,
to describve someone as "born of woman" is like saying :
"he breathed air" - its OBVIOUS.
So,
the only reason someone would say Christ was "born of woman" would be if this would NOT be a natural conclusion - i.e. Paul cannot be referring to a normal human being.
Paul is reffering to a being like found in the Ascension of Isaiah, or someone like Attis, or Osiris - a SPIRITUAL BEING.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by randman, posted 06-02-2005 6:29 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 103 of 378 (213678)
06-02-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Kapyong
06-02-2005 9:34 PM


Re: no Earthly Jesus
quote:
I did NOT claim Paul never mentioned the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ.
My point is that Paul discusses these events as spiritual things which apparently took place on the astral plane.
So Paul is referring to the astral plane 1 Cor. 15: 3-6?
quote:
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James..."
And his appearance to Peter, the 12 apostles (confirming that part of the gospel story I might add), and the 500, and to his own natural brother, that was just an astral being they had never met in the flesh who told them how He was crucified, buried and rose again, but then again all over in the astral plane, and by golly, those Jewish fishermen took this appearance as just a vision, not a literal resurrection, and Paul means it the same way.
Forgive me if I am a bit skeptical.
When was the last time you read the epistles? While admittedly Paul stresses the spiritual realm and gifts quite a bit, he is adament about Jesus's bodily death, burial and resurrection.
Moreover, why was Christ crucified a stumbling block to men if it was merely some event that occurred on the astral plane, and what do you think Paul meant when he claims, over and over and over again, that Jesus was crucified?
You claim Paul makes no mention of Jesus' earthly life or lineage, but in Romans 1:3 flat out says:
quote:
[he] was a descendant of David, and ....was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection of the dead
Are astral beings descendants of David or Jewish?
How about this?
[quote] For Christ, our passover lamb has been sacrificed. (1 Cor 5:7) [quote] Keep in mind this is not even the most eloquent areas refuting the claim Jesus was only an astral being. Paul talks of length about the bodily sacrifice and literal resurrection, and how Jesus, as a man like Adam, restored mankind to redemption.
This message has been edited by randman, 06-02-2005 09:55 PM
This message has been edited by randman, 06-02-2005 10:05 PM
This message has been edited by randman, 06-02-2005 10:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Kapyong, posted 06-02-2005 9:34 PM Kapyong has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 104 of 378 (213680)
06-02-2005 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Kapyong
06-02-2005 9:15 PM


Re: Jesus was real
It's proof that they believe it, and that seems to be something you guys fail to see. Sure, their belief could be wrong, but they believe it is true. They believe the man Jesus was crucified, buried and rose again, and for this they are crucified.
They were not crucified because they saw some angel or spirit on the astral plane.
To pretend that there is a logical contradiction here is just wrong. Yes, part of the evidence for the resurrection is indeed that they believed it, and certainly false beliefs have been believed as well, but there is no contradiction because the fact they believed they saw it is what is confirmed by their willingness to die for it.
We can look at Heaven's Gates claims which led to suicide and ask if there are similar reasoning. Did they all meet and know someone intimately who was killed and then came to life for example?
No, they did not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Kapyong, posted 06-02-2005 9:15 PM Kapyong has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by arachnophilia, posted 06-02-2005 10:32 PM randman has replied
 Message 106 by lfen, posted 06-02-2005 10:42 PM randman has not replied
 Message 107 by Brad, posted 06-02-2005 11:00 PM randman has not replied
 Message 117 by Trae, posted 06-03-2005 3:33 AM randman has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 105 of 378 (213683)
06-02-2005 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by randman
06-02-2005 10:13 PM


Re: Jesus was real
We can look at Heaven's Gates claims which led to suicide and ask if there are similar reasoning. Did they all meet and know someone intimately who was killed and then came to life for example?
No, they did not.
no. but they knew someone who had contact with space aliens, and had been on an alien spaceship disguised as a comet. and besides, the buddhists all know someone who died and came back to life: the buddha. otherwise known as his holiness, the dalai lama.
claims are not always true. lots of people are willing to die for their faith, no matter the religion or the veracity of it.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by randman, posted 06-02-2005 10:13 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by randman, posted 06-03-2005 12:00 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 154 by lfen, posted 06-12-2005 2:46 PM arachnophilia has replied

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