Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)

Hi, I've lurked here a month or so and I hope this is an apropriate topic to start out with. I didn't like the ideas that Christ is cruel, and thought this incorrect.Dear Shcraffinator, Christ isn't immoral or cruel, you have it the wrong way.It seems Monk hasn't gone in depth as to why you're wrong, but I don't want you to believe your post is true about God. Because you're wrong, you can't blame God for your sin, you have a choice, which I will reveal; There is no "skeptical mind" Schraf. YOU who CHOSE skepticism, a philosophy of mankind and therefore you created a skeptical mind for yourself, not God. There is the mind(A), that makes choices-->(B). Even I think skeptically about things, yet believe, so there is a false dichotomy here, in that you say God is either cruel or not powerful. But since that's built on the assumption that he created you to not believe, then I think that assumption is false. The third option is that God can be all-powerful yet has chosen to give you the choice of belief/disbelief.Christ said those who rejected him, another would judge them, that he came to save the world, not judge. He also said those who rejected him are condemned already because they have not believed in the only begotten Son of God. He didn't create you to send you to hell. You're argument is;God caused skeptical shraff so she'd go to hell. = God is cruel or hasn't got enough power in his engine.The truth is that God made Schraff(A) and she has sinned like everyone else on earth, she has her own will to choose as to whether to reject or accept the truth(B), and therefore chooses whether to believe(D) in the only begotten Son or not(E). (E) will leave you un-atoned for, which is all I can say. At best, I can say - you won't have atonement for your wrong-doings in life, and I thereby delicately warn you of that reality.As for your fallacy of limited choices, (2), there is not really a choice between God being cruel and not really all powerful, as God's capabilities are not dependent upon your choices in life. Feel free to get back to me. Sorry to pick on you, but I feel your post deserved my attention. I hope you can see, that God makes us all with minds to choose for ourselves. God isn't cruel, you just have to lay down your own worldy wisdom and believe, like many skeptics have done, can and do!

Hi. I skimmed through the 50 messages received in a few hours. Suffice to say, this message will be rather meaningless at this stage, as it's swallowed up by the tumult.Couple of things I want to say. My main objective isn't to judge the individual called Shraff, as I'm not that mean that I would pick on him to be judged like that. No, my objective was to state clearly that God isn't cruel.The following statement impressed me the most; To add to that, I'd just like to say that if there is a sighn saying "mind the hole" and you read the sign and don't mind the hole and fall down, who's fault is it?

But Shraff, there are things you don't know nor can know but that you must simply believe. I have no evidence that I am he that you have known but you must believe that I know you. Do you believe I know you? You see, if it's the truth that I know you, then you were right to believe. Do you know me? Do I need evidence to show I know you? Well, that's an example anyway.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-01-2005 09:45 PM

If you think trying to be moral is the best one can do, then you must agree that anything you do wrong means you're imperfect and renders your righteousness meaningless. What will atone for you wrongs?Do you agree that justice should be done? If justice should be done always, then you must pay for your wrongs always. What if you haven't paid for them all? Would God be just if he let you off on any wrongs? If he let you off, he would be a moral relativist like you, and his absolute righteousness would mean nothing.For you to hope God is as moral as you is the greatest delusion I've ever been witness to. What an utterly worldly thing to say, it's so bizarre a statement to anyone who has biblical knowledge. The bible says that only God is good.No one at any time is good enough to achieve heaven. Everybody has stolen, everybosy has lied, etc.Christ did not sin, ever. Have you ever done anything wrong?Listen, Jar says nice things to you, and says you'll go to heaven and me hell, but I strive to show you that Christ is the way, and he that believes in him will never die.Don't you think I would like to say, "a few more good works and you're in heaven Shraff"? I would like to, but unlike Jar, I don't think I'm God.So then, how many good works get me into heaven Jar? 3? 300? If it's more or less for anyone else then God's righteousness is not absolute.And what about those who do many evils and many goods? Does half of them go to heaven and the other half hell?

Crashfrog, you and Schraff have known me, don't you know who I am? Believe me - I know you. It is true.Well? To believe or not to believe, I leave it up to you.

I don't know, like Christ.Eeerm, I know you. Do you believe me? Where's my evidence?Also, I feel you avoided message one. I feel you know that it can't be refuted. I think intellectually it must have satisfied you.

How many times have I heard that one. If you want to preach freethinking to me, you'd better make sure your story and wisdom makes sense.What is the "right thing" ifmorals are relative like unbelievers preach. If you said, "I hope God is atleast as moral as me" and Jack the ripper said "I hope God is atleast as moral as me", if relativism is correct, then why should God be like you rather than Jack the ripper?Jack kept his moral, to only kill women, and he never transgressed that moral by killing a man. He might be more moral than you.As for your question, "b" person doesn't exist. We do good to please God, and the NT says we are "unprofitable servants", therefore we do good, but more importantly, we believe good exists and that it is absolute.So how can you do the right thing when you don't even believe good exists? there is no good action, because it's relative? Your good action might be another unbelievers evil action.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 08:07 AM

It's okay - I understand completely. You want God to be as you think he should be, like Jar. Which is to make God in your own image.I don't preach that God is cruel or a monstrous creature, that isn't my God, so don't say it. Christ was perfect, and forgave many, and healed whoever came to him, so don't make out I worship a devil, when I have cearly stated the opposite.It's okay, I understand, you want me to tell you what you want to hear like Jar has. What shall I do? Pretend I wrote the bible and give you a little line;" hey, you're basicly a good guy, yeah sure - you're going to heaven, and creationists to hell".There you go, keep on walking to the edge of the cliff, because I've just blinded you completely. I've affirmed your delusion.You see, I could be like Jar, and tell you something to please your ears, or I can attempt over a long period, to tell you what God actually does say, because I know what I say is irrelevant.I want to tell you you're going to heaven a hundred fold more that Jar does, whether you believe me or not. I was here before Jar, I tried to convert SHraff before Jar even joined, I care about her more, but I won't lie and make God in my own image, and say things about God I prefer to say. I have leanred many things, and many logics that people might see my true and lengthy effort. To show that there are valid answers to these questions that are well thought out on not designed to comfort you, but to meet your intellectual requirements, like message one. But - okay, if you want to believe the sentence that is good to the ear then fair enough, I'll stop saying anything now.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 08:17 AMThis message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 08:19 AM

Good pint, and you gave me an idea aswell.I have a logical answer now, that might satisfy the none-believer's requirements. (well, nothing would do that, but ...ho hum )Let's say for arguments sake, that God foresees that someone's parents go to hell, yet their son goes to heaven. If God doesn't create the parents, then the son who goes to heaven, will never exist. This means that God's intention to create his son, with his desire for his son to have those specific genes, would be lost. God's intention would become obsolete. The son wouldn't be born nor go to heaven.That's an answer to their question, not that I think their position is valid anyway, that God creates an unbeliever for hell, as message one clearly refuted that notion.Hey Phatboy, do you mean confess? About what?This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 08:31 AM

It would be an infinite reason for them to be created.Remember, the parents are created with a choice ASWELL as the fact that God has to think about the child. So it looks like it isn't as simple as "God created me to burn" when his intent for you to believe, is quite clear in the NT.No one is blinded to the sign "mind the hole", everyone can choose as to whether to believe or not, but the bible clearly has warned us to mind the hole. If we don't, then questioning God in an attempt to take the focus off of our sins, won't wash with Him come judgement day.It is truly a perverse teaching to say that God created someone to go to hell. This is not backed up by the bible at all. His clear intentions are to save the world. Only satan could make such a perverse and backward teaching, and turn it on God instead of the true condemner, which is sin.

Why remove the chaff if you remove the wheat also?What matters is the chaff is chaff and the wheat is wheat, and the maker is the maker.If there was no choice, then you would be correct. There is, and you haven't answered what I said about the sign to mind the hole.Right now, anyone can change their mind and believe. Therefore, if God created an unbeliever to go to hell, how can an unbeliever change that will if he becomes a believer? Has he not broken that logic?I thought it was God's will. Yet you have the power to change to belief. That's three very weighty answers that prove, via reason and logic, that God doesn't intend us for hell.1. It's our choise completely
2. The believer children of the unbelievers
3. You can change what you are saying is God's will. If it's God's will, trust me - you wouldn't have the power to change it. Yet you can, by believing tomorrow morning. If you believed tomorrow morning, you would negate the following;"God created me to burn".It is therefore impossible that it is God's will for people to burn, because God's will doesn't change when people's minds change. Otherwise, I could decide that rape was not sin, if I changed my mind.IF YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND YOU WOULD CHANGE GOD'S WILL< WHICH MEANS HE WOULD NOT BE OMNIPOTENTThere are only two logical pathways left. Either it is God's will, and his will can be changed, or it isn't Gods will.The bible says the latter. Because God is all-powerful. There is no way we would have the power to change the mind of the creator of this universe.This is checkmate. All readers read atleast three times.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:12 AM

If God's morals are relative, then if God is as moral as you, and is of the Jack the Ripper kind of moral, then you'd be happy with that?You miss my point completely. The morals in the bible don't change. The words don't change. You say you believe good exists, but it's not absolute? Then what is good? It becomes defined as "whatever I like", because you said;"The value of moral standards can be judged by their usefulness to maintaining a civil society in which people live together and cause each other as little harm as possible."So then is good what is good for society?But we're talking about God. Are you saying God's morals are relative? LMAO.If they are, then what makes Jack the ripper wrong and you right. Exactly miss Shraffy!!!!! Man you're smarter than this!It wouldn't matter if he offended your moral, because good is what benefits him remember, and his willing society of heaven bounds, chosen by Jack to sacrifice themselves because it is "good" to them.If he violated your moral standard,(unbeliever 1) and another unbeliever says that Jack killing didn't violate his moral standards(unbeliever 2), then who should God listen to? WHo is right?Why should God choose your moral if the other unbeliever thinks killing is good?Therefore good MUST be absolute. It must means something absolute, or it could represent anything. Your good acts are moot, if they are evil acts in Jack's eyes, and his society of willing sacrificial femi-freaks.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:25 AM

Where is your evidence that God done this? Why are you scared to mention GOD with us - Jesus Christ? Why is it you insist that the OT is proof of God's cruelty rather than proof of the people's sin?You cannot even comprehend what people where like back then. People who would make idols and sacrifice their own children.Is it good to abort children?You haven't answered me, what is good? If morals are relative, then I'll assume you're happy with a Jack the Ripper God because he dilligently obeys his moral to only kill women. WHo is correct, unbeliever 1 or 2? Should God listen to you or Jack?Christ tells us what is good, absolutely.. Only he fulfilled the law. All thos eother men you mention in the OT, had the law of sin and death, and all of them failed. Only Christ done good and did not ever sin, therefore he is the standard of God.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:43 AM

No, as he would also know what she done next. His knowing doesn't make him change Shraff's mind. Lil miss Shraffy is the one who changes her mind, but it doesn't matter if God foresees it, it is not his will, as his will cannot be changed by humans or he wouldn't be all powerful. Therefore it isn't possible that he created her to go to hell. Checkmate.Therefore, it is the fault of him that chooses to not believe, and stay in sin.You're not concentrating on choice enough.The choice is real. That an unbeliever AS OF NOW, can choose to believe, and it was God's will to tell his apostles to preach the Gospel that people will be saved.God says his will is that we believe. He has told us his will beforehand. So it can't be that his will can change with a change of the human's mind.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:51 AM

No, Christ says don't even get angry with your brother, so it's not possible for us to do this.Muslims on the other hand, and unbelievers, are free to jihad under relative morals lil miss shraffy.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 09:55 AM