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Author Topic:   Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 306 (213116)
06-01-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mikehager
06-01-2005 1:21 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
God can be all-powerful yet has chosen to give you the choice of belief/disbelief.
Do you fail to see the contradiction? God created me. God is all knowing. God knew when he created the universe that Mike Hager would come into being and that he would see the world and find that it contradicts the existence of God every step of the way. I made that choice, but God set up me and the game full knowing what the outcome would be. I was allowed by God to exist with God's full knowledge that I would, under his rules, be consigned to the pit. No amount of sophistry and apologetics will change that. I was created for no reason other then to be punished.
If your idea of God exists, he did these things and he is cruel. Thankfully, your god does not exist and I need noty worry about it.
What you've left out, as everyone always does, is that He has mercifully and fairly allowed you to learn everything you need to know to save yourself from the pit. You know he's all-powerful, you know he has a definite plan to save some and condemn others, you know how he makes this determination and you have been given every opportunity to reconsider your views.
Therefore you are without excuse if you choose to reject His offer of salvation. You will even recognize yourself that you are personally accountable in the end, when it turns out that he does exist and has given you plenty of time and all the information you need to change direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 1:21 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 1:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2005 1:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 2:17 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 306 (213126)
06-01-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by mikehager
06-01-2005 1:41 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
I understand your reasoning just fine, but you are denying the simple fact that at this very moment you have enough information to change your mind. You insist on a rigid predetermination that is not given in scripture. Jesus calls us to repent and believe, so it's not impossible for you either. He also says it is His own words that will condemn us in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 1:41 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 306 (213127)
06-01-2005 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
06-01-2005 1:43 PM


Re: Nothing important left out.
Hi, Faith.
I am going to hit you on the nose unless you believe that I am the greatest genius that ever lived. I can tell by the look on your face that you do not believe that I am the greatest genius that ever lived, so I am going to hit you on the nose.
Am I being cruel?
Perhaps I will give some thought to your credentials before I decide . I'm sure you can offer some? God has plenty he's offered you know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2005 1:43 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 306 (213203)
06-01-2005 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
06-01-2005 2:17 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Still having problems with this one:
Faith writes:
What you've left out, as everyone always does, is that He has mercifully and fairly allowed you to learn everything you need to know to save yourself from the pit.
Let's grant for the sake of discussion that God has placed before Schraf the necessary information to understand both that he exists and what he expects from her.
The important point is that God created Schraf. He created her ability to perceive and interpret this information. How does the fault lie with Schraf?
Making the same point in a slightly different way, God created you and God created Schraf. He gave you ability to perceive and accept his gift, but he denied it to Schraf. How do you conclude that you deserve credit and Schraf condemnation, rather than that it's just how God created you both?
Well, I don't deserve credit at all, I know I don't deserve salvation, and I'm well aware that I could have gone on to my death never knowing God and am extremely grateful to Him that He didn't leave me in that condition.
I do have to agree that this is a knotty problem to sort out, because scripture does teach us that our faith is a gift from God. But it's not that He "created" me and Schraf different, it's not a matter of one's native "ability to perceive and interpret," it's that eventually He did supply me with the faith to believe -- I'm well aware that there is no difference between me and Schraf as far as native ability goes -- because NOBODY has the native ability to believe without God's intervention. This is the crux of the knotty problem of course, but it's really just a theological hangup because scripture simply exhorts us to believe and doesn't put this kind of knotty problem in our way.
I can only sort the problem out on the basis of scripture's clear calls to believe, so that it must be possible to believe, meaning that anyone who wants to believe will be given what it takes to believe, as the man in scripture said, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief" (Mark 9:24). In the first days of believing in God I was afraid that I would lose it again, would fall back into doubting it all as I had done for most of my life, and lose God again, and I prayed that He would not let that happen. I think that kind of will to believe, but especially the dependence upon Him to bring it about, He will honor. Of course an unbeliever can scorn this as an irrational process, if you prefer.
Look, the Bible is VERY clear. What happens here at EvC is that everything about it is aggressively and proudly doubted so that its very clear message is trashed. But it is very clear: believe and be saved -- the ONE thing people will not do is what it asks -- BELIEVE IT. It warns repeatedly against believing what the "world" says, what the "wise" of the world, the philosophers or thinkers of the world say -- and yet this is what unbelievers do anyway and are even exhorted to do as if it were the rational thing to do. But Jesus says to believe. Therefore they are "without excuse."
Scripture also says that God is not the author of sin, so that anything we do that is sin, that opposes God, that is disobedient, is our responsibility, not His. He DIDN'T "create us this way" in the sense of creating our sin, our fallenness.
Again, I'm sure there's plenty of reason in the above for confirming a person in disbelief who has a mind to disbelieve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 2:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 4:57 PM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 9:41 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 306 (213207)
06-01-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Percy
06-01-2005 4:23 PM


Re: Free will
Her choice is to deny Christ. God clearly did not create her specifically to deny Christ...in fact, God only created Adam and Eve, from the original sin onwards, man was on his own. God did not specifically create Schraf, however He did send His only begotten Son to die for her sins. Schraf can either accept this, or deny this.
This seems a slightly different argument than Faith's, since you say God did not create Schraf. But with an all-knowing and all-powerful God the flaw in Schraf's soul was implicit when he performed the initial creation. The initial creation event governed all that came after. God creates souls, they do not create themselves.
Yes I do disagree with Modulous's idea that God did not specifically create Schraf, but I agree if what he means is that God did not create her sin nature, that original sin we all inherit from Adam. God is not responsible for our disobedience even if He foreknew it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 4:23 PM Percy has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 306 (213220)
06-01-2005 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
06-01-2005 4:57 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
And other religions send pretty much the same message. Who to believe?
NO other religion offers you salvation by another's death in your place. ALL other religions promise you salvation if you obey all their rules. Christianity alone says you are incapable of obeying them, so God sent His Son to spare you.
I acknowledged the difficulties between a God who is sovereign and our responsibility. But again scripture clearly says He is not responsible for our sins, which include the sin of disbelief. ForeKNOWLEDGE, yes, but we are on our own with the sin.
All I can say about my having been granted the grace to believe and others not (yet?), is that if you want to believe you can ask God for the grace. Jesus says "come unto Me." Jesus says "Believe." There is no ambiguity at this level. At this level it is your own will that decides your fate.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 05:13 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 4:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 5:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 43 by Cthulhu, posted 06-01-2005 7:08 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 306 (213270)
06-01-2005 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Cthulhu
06-01-2005 7:08 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Prove it. I know what I'm talking about and you are believing some kind of bizarre counterfeit.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 306 (213272)
06-01-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Percy
06-01-2005 5:27 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
NO other religion offers you salvation by another's death in your place. ALL other religions promise you salvation if you obey all their rules. Christianity alone says you are incapable of obeying them, so God sent His Son to spare you.
And these qualities specific to Christianity are defining of truth how?
First things first. You claimed IIRC that it's hard to decide among religions because they all say basically the same thing and I showed you that Christianity is truly Something Else. Do you acknowledge this or not?
As for "defining of truth how?" I guess the answer is that you can believe it or not believe it. If you'd rather work your way to heaven, good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 5:27 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:48 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 306 (213276)
06-01-2005 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Cthulhu
06-01-2005 7:08 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Sacrificial God Man, The
Mithraism and Early Christianity
I have to admit I haven't completely read through these links. Both are attempts to claim that Christianity built on these pagan religions, for which there is not one shred of evidence. All the evidence shows that it developed completely out of Judaism.
As for any superficial similarities, there have been many religions that involve human sacrifice and even literal cannibalism. THere have certainly been many that involve varieties of animal sacrifice. All this shows is that human race still vaguely remembers from the fall of our first parents that something is necessary in the realm of sacrifice to atone for our sins before God -- but the Sacrifice that truly saves is not in human power. Some religions incorporated more elements of the intuition/memory than others. However, these are all mere shadows. The real thing that God promised from Eden is Christ. Nobody but the sinless perfect Son of God could save us. The death of sinners and "gods" can't possibly save.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 306 (213277)
06-01-2005 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
06-01-2005 8:37 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
There are no contradictions. God had the task of presenting himself to fallen humanity in terms we could grasp, we who are not only mere creatures but fallen creatures, who can't comprehend the infinite God as He is. We live in time so God presents Himself to our time-consciousness. There is no reason He couldn't have created everything in a flash, but He lays it out by days so that our minds can have something to fasten onto {Edit: This is in fact the view of John Calvin}. There's a great deal in scripture that is done strictly for our benefit, as God's condescension to our weaknesses.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 08:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 06-02-2005 9:50 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 306 (213281)
06-01-2005 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Asgara
06-01-2005 5:44 PM


Re: some are created solely to be damned
If god knows that people will be atheists at death and still brings them into being, or allows them to come into being, or whatever your brand of god does then it stands to reason that these particular people are created solely to be damned.
This is true.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."*
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."* 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."* 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This is all true. And yet ALL WHO HEAR THE GOSPEL ARE INVITED. All who sincerely want to be saved God's way will be saved. There is no way for anyone to know who is to be saved and who not. Any unbeliever could at any moment become a believer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 5:44 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 72 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 11:44 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 306 (213284)
06-01-2005 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Percy
06-01-2005 8:48 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
First things first. You claimed IIRC that it's hard to decide among religions because they all say basically the same thing and I showed you that Christianity is truly Something Else. Do you acknowledge this or not?
You don't recall correctly. You said, in essence, the Bible says BELIEVE IT, and I replied, "And other religions send pretty much the same message. Who to believe?"
Sorry if there was some kind of misunderstanding. I was answering the statement that they "send pretty much the same message." They do not.
But actually, if belief itself is the topic, other religions DON'T ask you to believe anything in order to be saved. Most religions teach things you are to DO to be saved, but belief isn't part of that -- even if you are to believe things, they aren't promised to save you, but believing in the sacrifice of Christ IS promised to save you.
Belief is a huge factor throughout the Bible:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
"Believe" occurs 143 times in 131 verses: Page 1, verses 1 - 25
Exd 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
Exd 4:5 That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.
Exd 4:8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.
Exd 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour [it] upon the dry [land]: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry [land].
Exd 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Num 14:11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
Deu 1:32 Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
"Belief" occurs once:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
It appears you think there's some universal truth that one should seek the one, right and true religion by finding the one that offers you "salvation by another's death in your place." As I said, this is merely a notion specific to Christianity, not the structure of truth. You've got to stop presuming your personal religious beliefs are universal truths for everyone else.
That's how they are presented in the Bible, as THE God's message to ALL humanity and I'm not going to stop presuming that because that IS the faith God gives. I didn't make these things up.
And it's for your sake that anybody would bother to try to convince you. I perseonally don't need you or anybody to believe anything, but it does scare me to see how people here put themselves in danger.
However, take it or leave it. It's a free country.
But this is drawing us off topic. We're seeking an explanation for why God creates souls he knows he'll one day condemn to hell.
He doesn't say why. I'm sure we'll all understand it one day. {edit: Actually that's not what we're seeking. We're seeking to find out if Christ is cruel. I just posted a quote to Asgara that says God does indeed condemn some to hell from the beginning. It doesn't say why.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:28 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:30 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 06-02-2005 10:16 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 306 (213286)
06-01-2005 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by robinrohan
06-01-2005 5:20 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
You keep going back and forth. First it's something God grants you, then it's something you did.
Perhaps it's both. Here's my scriptural evidence: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God which worketh in you . . ."
Yes it is both. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:20 PM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 306 (213298)
06-01-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by nator
06-01-2005 9:41 PM


Can one choose to believe?
Could be that one can't. I never thought one could but I figure it's worth a try, just read what Jesus says and believe him, but if you can't you can't. There's nothing in what he says that contradicts anything you know for sure, unlike my knowing I'm not male. It's simply a matter of believing WHAT HE SAYS. Oh well. If you can't you can't.
Edited some stuff in.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:54 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 09:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 91 of 306 (213433)
06-02-2005 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by nator
06-02-2005 9:32 AM


Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
Was it "good" for God to order the genocide of an entire nation of people; men, women, and infants?
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 9:32 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by nator, posted 06-02-2005 9:52 AM Faith has replied

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