Why This Belief?

Duh!? And your posts contain your opinions. Thanks Captain Obvious. evidence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v-dns)
n.
A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgmentI felt something that helped me form a conclusion. It cannot be substantiated but I still call it evidence. Perhaps you'd use a different definition for the word, do what you like.I said why I believe. I wasn't under the impression that this thread was to offer "compelling reason" for others to believe.

That is true of just about everyone. We read what we want to into everything. Accepting or rejecting a religious faith requires a paradigm shift in our thinking. That has certainly been true for me both as a Christian and as a non-Christian. I agree with you that science will make huge strides in the coming years in regards to intelligence, but I am much less sure about designing machines with consciousness. There is a vast difference between computing and reasoning and as far as I know, and as you seem to infer, science has no idea how we reason and even less of an idea how the brain makes moral decisions.I have only read about Kant, but I think that I can draw a parallel between his method and Dawkins. Both can explain how we might have come to where we are, whether it be our physical, biological or philosophical make up. They can only theorize though how it might have happened. I contend that it is just as reasonable to suggest that there is intelligent design behind it all. The first leans towards the scientific and the second towards the philosophical or theological.I simply contend that the argument for Intelligent Design is much more persuasive than the argument for random chance. Many would disagree.You are a scientist. I am just someone who finds science fascinating and struggles at just understanding basic scientific concepts. However, (I never let my lack of knowledge stop me from pontificating my point of view ), it seems to me as I read about QM I can't help but see ID in it all. I can look out my window and see the ocean, the sun, trees, houses etc and it all looks so real. QM is basically telling me now that it is all illusionary, that all matter is really just tiny particles of energy, that other little tiny particles of energy cause me to see this illusion as reality and that other particles of energy cause me to feel the illusion of substance.This doesn't seem to me like something that just happens. It requires something outside of our so-called reality in this dimension or universe, and that something would have to have intelligence. It seems to me that conclusion would cause me to learn what I could about this intelligence. I still maintain that if we really contemplate our own sense of being that we can sense a part of us that is more than just our physical being. For example think about your dreams. It seems to me that when I dream I'm not any particular age. There is something about our existence that just doesn't seem to fit anywhere into time.Also you might want to ask doctors about out of body experiences. The human mind has in my view made incredible leaps in understanding the natural world but in my view the human mind hasn't made little if any progress in understanding the world that is outside of the natural in 2000 years It is strange to me that you should say that because I have always felt that way until I started reading books on the incredible advances in human knowledge in all fields of science. From my viewpoint science has caused the universe to seem smaller and less formidable.I also tend to think that when you use the terms infinite and eternity you too have slipped over to the metaphysical. Maybe somewhere deep down in the recesses of your mind there lurks a Theist. Thanks for the discussion

Doesn't it ever occur to you that the reason this is the case is because there's nothing there to understand - that the natural is all that there is?

We understand how to examine and experiment with the physical to gain physical evidence whereas there is no equivalent method of examining or experimenting with the metaphysical.This message has been edited by GDR, 06-01-2005 06:50 PM

Doesn't really answer my question. Why is it more likely that what you say is true, as opposed to there being nothing metaphysical at all? Maybe the reason we have no methods for examining the metaphysical is because it isn't there to examine? Certainly seems more likely to me.

If the natural is all that's there then you don't have a soul. If you don't have a soul then there is no eternal significance after your natural life. Is humanity meant to rot in our graves as natural beings, existing only as living and breathing individuals on earth or only a lifeless corpse in the ground.............As a born again Christian I am bound for heaven and I don't just take that for granted but expand the kingdom of God on this earth while I'm still here to spread his glory and show Jesus' love. I'm glad I don't exist on the same level as all organisms, humans have a higher destiny and it seems only natural to me.

Ok....Oh, I'm sorry. Was that supposed to mean something to me? If you'll excuse me, I have to get back to doing what I can before I die. Thanks. Oh, I'm sure you think so. That's so cute! Careful!This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 06-02-2005 01:31 AM

I agree that it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that you have. The question becomes which is more reasonable; is there design or not.When I considered the world around me, asked why we love, hate, experience joy or sorrow, or questioned the intricate nature of any life, I came to the conclusion that the evidence that all of this was designed or invented by an intelligence outside of our physical existence far exceeded the likelihood that this all came about by some cosmic accident.My experience of life since has only confirmed the conclusion that I reached about 25 years ago.

We have yet to quantify the measure or essence of a thought...or two.

And I pointed out some spurious assumptions you made in making your decision. You really don't like your faith being questioned, do you?

What evidence was that?Oh, and in regards to likelyhood - what was the exact likelyhood you came to? Be sure to show your work, please.

no, it's mean nothing to those who aren't saved but everything in eternity for those who are.
.....my question is: Are you simply uncomfortable with speaking of eternity and its ramifications? Does is it occur to you that there COULD be a spiritual realm? Or do you just deny it and go on with your life. i know so. sorry that aggravates you.

Oh, it's occured to me. If there is a spiritual realm its completely beyond the borders of the universe - unable to affect events in ours in any way.So what's the point? I might as well propose purple dragons beyond the universe for all the good it does. I mean I like a good game of pretend as much as anyone, but I don't mistake pretend for truths about reality. And I don't have such a high opinion of myself that I think that things come to be just because I wished for it hard enough.But yeah it'd be pretty cool if there were a spiritual realm.

I agree that the spiritual realm would be beyond the borders of the universe because God created the borders. However, although God is distant he is omnipresent and he works in my heart daily in this life on this earth, that still small voice in my head. I think it's interesting how culture satirizes the angels on your shoulders but in reality (including the spiritual realm) there are conflicting forces that battle over our soul constantly. take a look at demon worshippers and tell me they're JUST crazy."For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
Ephesians 6:12 (NIV)

I assume that you are asking me for scientific evidence. I don't have any. Please show me your work. ID is not going to proven or disproven by science.I still maintain that the intricate nature of the natural world is far more likely to be designed than to have happened by random chance. If you want more detail see post 7 on this thread.