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Author Topic:   Why This Belief?
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 33 of 111 (213809)
06-03-2005 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by GDR
06-02-2005 11:38 PM


GDR writes:
I still maintain that the intricate nature of the natural world is far more likely to be designed than to have happened by random chance. If you want more detail see post 7 on this thread.
I just don't understand how you can make that claim. What constitutes "more likely?" I've reviewed post 7 a couple of times and find no supporting evidence to this claim. If you could quote a passage or two that highlight this that would be much appreciated. I'm not necessarily asking for scientific evidence, I would just like to know why you come to this conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 06-02-2005 11:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 06-03-2005 10:58 AM Max Power has replied

  
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 36 of 111 (213854)
06-03-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
06-03-2005 10:58 AM


I appologize, that was a little off topic, I always get a little erked when people don't present reasoning for their statements. I will accept your statement for the purpose of this discussion.
Changing gears a little bit. The following quotes are from message 7.
Also, it seems to me that if the Atheistic view was accurate, their nature would be to simply get as much as they can, as quickly as they can, and anyway they can. My experience with Atheists is that this just isn’t the case. This indicates to me that their positive attributes are from something other than the natural. They love their families, and have compassion for others just like everyone else. I don’t see any evidence that feelings of love, compassion and values are a part of any evolutionary process. It certainly appears to me that there is something external to our physical world that is influencing our thoughts. It is also obvious that we can all choose to ignore that influence, or as it has been put, that still small voice.
You say that evolutionary processes don't lead to loving one's family or having compassion for others. Are these traits not seen in other species? Loving ones families is essential for many species to survive. Look at the mother child relationship for dogs, monkeys, etc. I think that compassion can be put in that same boat. I guess the definition of love and compassion can come into question. Do you contend that the thing that causes a mother dog to protect her babies is different then the thing that causes a mother human to protect her child?
I can’t prove that Christ was who he said he was, but I believe that the circumstantial evidence is convincing. Why would he carry on a false messianic complex to the cross? Why would his followers who had been totally dispirited after the crucifixion go on to commit the rest of their lives to taking Christ’s life and message to the world. Some of the apostles were executed because of this commitment.
What about the possibility that Jesus was dillusional but at the same time very convincing. Look at how we treat modern day people who "talk to God." To be dillusional doesn't necessarily mean they can't be extremely intelligent and persuasive.
What about the evidence of all of the individuals who gave his/her life for the Islam way? A common response is that they have been deceived by political leaders or dillusional leaders. Why is it so obvious that these individuals are dillusional or politically influenced and not Jesus? Strength of conviction (even enough to die for) does not imply (in my mind) divinity.
I don't mean to attack you or anything like that, but I've always been torn as to why any single religion. It really seems like a "world view" choice which has been basically decided by where and when you (not necessarily you specifically) were born. How can I justify devoting my life to a belief that is based on the random chance that I was born here or there? When there are major correlations between families that are extremely religious in a certain religion and there children following the same way, I can't justify a God punishing me for not following the right religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 06-03-2005 10:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 06-03-2005 2:28 PM Max Power has not replied
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-03-2005 8:31 PM Max Power has replied

  
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 41 of 111 (214155)
06-04-2005 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
06-03-2005 8:31 PM


What about comming back from the dead?
Now thats convincing.
I guess this comes down to the credibility of the bible, which has been discussed indepth in other threads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-03-2005 8:31 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 11:51 AM Max Power has replied

  
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 50 of 111 (214176)
06-04-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by GDR
06-04-2005 11:51 AM


I can't see where the resurrection is any more of a miracle than what we can today observe with particle entanglement. The big difference is that particle entanglement is a constantly reoccurring miracle so science can observe it and experiment with it at any time. The resurrection was a miracle that happened once in the past and cannot be observed today.
Are you saying that something that happens without us nowing how or why is a miracle? Under that definition everything is a mircle, isn't it? In 300 BC, when observers noticed that the planets where not moving in perfect circles (as there theory expected), was that a miracle...until we decided that the sun was what they revolved around and not earth. But still the idea of gravity is a miracle because we don't know exactly what is causing the two masses to attract to one another. If/when we figure out more indepthly how the particle entanglement works, or adapt our laws of cause and effect such that this fits into the whole picture, then is it not a miracle? What isn't a miracle then?
To consider the miracle of the resurrection one still must accept that the bible is credible. Why does the bible consist of only those books and not include the book of mormon (to most people) or the Koran for that matter? Why not stop at the OT? This opens up a door of lengthy discussion, and I think that this will bring the thread off topic.
If you found yourself on a deserted island with no memory and found yourself with many of the religious texts, would you still follow the teachings of the OT and NT? What would make you believe that Moses talked to God and not Joseph Smith or why not believe the Mahabharata for that matter? Granted there are some common threads in many of these documents, but I think you will agree that you can't follow the Mahabharata, the Bible, and the Koran. Can you? I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is the bible self credible or does society dictate that it is credible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 11:51 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 1:10 PM Max Power has replied
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 4:48 PM Max Power has not replied

  
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 61 of 111 (214214)
06-04-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
06-04-2005 1:10 PM


Re: Why THIS belief?
It can be said that theology is more of a faith issue rather than a logic issue.
I guess my next question is then, how does one "decide" what to have faith in? Don't you still use logic in that decision? How can one have faith that a certain work is credible without logic? Maybe I'm missing the point here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 1:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 3:28 PM Max Power has replied

  
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 63 of 111 (214231)
06-04-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
06-04-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Why THIS belief?
By all means, Yes! Some of us have had intense religious experiences in which we were so affected as to have no logical alternative.
Knowing that my own senses deceive me constantly and consistantly, when do we decide that this is infact God and not a misconception. Because of this I have no option but to follow logic, being much more reliable than my senses and mind. Does it follow that I am doomed/blessed to live without God? Put another way, does one have to accept that his/her senses are not deceiving them at a certain instance in order to accept that it was God who made them feel that way?
Message 53 writes:
It can be said that theology is more of a faith issue rather than a logic issue.
If your logic decides what to have faith in, then wouldn't it be a logic issue? This is assuming that I don't trust my senses.
Others of us have examined religion and found it deficient in the logic that they needed.
So presumably they become unbelievers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 3:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
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