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Author Topic:   Why This Belief?
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6007 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 61 of 111 (214214)
06-04-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
06-04-2005 1:10 PM


Re: Why THIS belief?
It can be said that theology is more of a faith issue rather than a logic issue.
I guess my next question is then, how does one "decide" what to have faith in? Don't you still use logic in that decision? How can one have faith that a certain work is credible without logic? Maybe I'm missing the point here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 1:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 3:28 PM Max Power has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 111 (214222)
06-04-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Max Power
06-04-2005 3:11 PM


Re: Why THIS belief?
MAX POWER writes:
I guess my next question is then, how does one "decide" what to have faith in? Don't you still use logic in that decision?
By all means, Yes! Some of us have had intense religious experiences in which we were so affected as to have no logical alternative. Others of us have examined religion and found it deficient in the logic that they needed. Faith has to personally affect you.
I believe that we as humans never "find" God. He "finds" us. It is then up to our logic to accept Him or to reject Him.
Never choose a belief based on blind faith. Blind faith is only used once yiou have already found your belief. Blind faith is really unseeing the outcome yet trusting that it will be a good outcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Max Power, posted 06-04-2005 3:11 PM Max Power has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Max Power, posted 06-04-2005 3:59 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 06-04-2005 4:04 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 65 by lfen, posted 06-04-2005 4:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6007 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 63 of 111 (214231)
06-04-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
06-04-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Why THIS belief?
By all means, Yes! Some of us have had intense religious experiences in which we were so affected as to have no logical alternative.
Knowing that my own senses deceive me constantly and consistantly, when do we decide that this is infact God and not a misconception. Because of this I have no option but to follow logic, being much more reliable than my senses and mind. Does it follow that I am doomed/blessed to live without God? Put another way, does one have to accept that his/her senses are not deceiving them at a certain instance in order to accept that it was God who made them feel that way?
Message 53 writes:
It can be said that theology is more of a faith issue rather than a logic issue.
If your logic decides what to have faith in, then wouldn't it be a logic issue? This is assuming that I don't trust my senses.
Others of us have examined religion and found it deficient in the logic that they needed.
So presumably they become unbelievers?

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 Message 62 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 3:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 111 (214234)
06-04-2005 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
06-04-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Why THIS belief?
Phatboy writes:
I believe that we as humans never "find" God. He "finds" us.
That's a cute aphorism, but what's it supposed to mean?
If God is omniscient, She shouldn't have to look very hard to find us. So how come some of us never get found? And if She shows up on my doorstep, what kind of logic does it take to accept or reject Her?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 65 of 111 (214235)
06-04-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
06-04-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Why THIS belief?
I believe that we as humans never "find" God. He "finds" us. It is then up to our logic to accept Him or to reject Him.
I agree. I also agree that we as humans never "find" the theory of evolution, it "finds" us and so on and so forth.
It is then up to our logic to accept Him or to reject Him.
Yep. All we do is watch and see how it plays out
lfen

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 66 of 111 (214239)
06-04-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Brian
06-04-2005 1:16 PM


Brian writes:
But Buddha taught that there is no God, it would be difficult to imagine him being a prophet.
As far as I know, and I stand to be corrected, but the original Buddha, (about 700 BC I think) did not talk bout a deity one way or the other. Buddha's message of loving your enemy would certainly be revolutionary 2700 years ago which still leads me to think that he was inspired in delivering the message that he did.
My own thoughts on this are that the original Buddha was inspired with his message but the religion kinda got off the rails with reincarnation etc. I think in a way it has a parallel with Christianity, which was based on the Jewish prophecies that were fulfilled by Christ. Since then someone decided that the Bible should read like a book on science which has clouded the true message of Christ.
Being a Christian does not require me to think that other religions are totally wrong.

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 Message 55 by Brian, posted 06-04-2005 1:16 PM Brian has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 67 of 111 (214241)
06-04-2005 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Max Power
06-04-2005 12:36 PM


MAX POWER writes:
Are you saying that something that happens without us nowing how or why is a miracle?
I'm just suggesting as food for thought that if what is happening at the micro level were to happen at the macro level an argument could be made that a miracle had occurred. From that point of view we could also say that just because there is no natural explanation for the resurrection that doesn't qualify it as a miracle either.
I just think that the discoveries of science have made the miraculous seem less miraculous some how.
MAX POWER writes:
If you found yourself on a deserted island with no memory and found yourself with many of the religious texts, would you still follow the teachings of the OT and NT? What would make you believe that Moses talked to God and not Joseph Smith or why not believe the Mahabharata for that matter? Granted there are some common threads in many of these documents, but I think you will agree that you can't follow the Mahabharata, the Bible, and the Koran. Can you? I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is the bible self credible or does society dictate that it is credible?
Good question and I wish I could come up with a really good answer. In reference to my sojourn on the deserted island; I think I would accept the Bible message. It sees to me that after reading all of those religious books the next logical step would be to pray. There wouldn't be much as else left as I wouldn't have any neighbours to love. I believe that when we pray for guidance on things like that we do get a response, not in an audible voice, but through thoughts in our head that didn't exist previously.
I can't really say what conclusion I would come to as to what should and what shouldn't be taken literally, but it is the message and what you do about the message that is important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Max Power, posted 06-04-2005 12:36 PM Max Power has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 68 of 111 (214243)
06-04-2005 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by crashfrog
06-04-2005 1:28 PM


crashfrog writes:
That's not ID, then. ID is the position that it can be determined scientifically, and has been.
Neither is evolution the position that the hand of God was definately not involved; it is simply the position that all life on Earth can best be explained by the interaction of natural laws.
We are getting closer. I'm not saying that ID is science but I think that some day science might hit upon the point at which the natural interacts with the supernatural.
I don't have the knowledge to make my own judgements on the truth of the evolutionary process. I have however come to the conclusion that it is most likely true as the majority of those who do understand it,(like yourself I imagine) accept it as the best model we have. As a Theist however I have to believe that either there was Intelligent Design that set it off with everything necessary for its development in place, or that the designer periodically tweaks the process to achieve a particular outcome. I belong to the latter school of thought.
This is taking a lot of time. I gotta get a life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2005 1:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by lfen, posted 06-04-2005 7:54 PM GDR has replied
 Message 72 by tsig, posted 06-04-2005 9:37 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 69 of 111 (214245)
06-04-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
06-04-2005 1:26 PM


Re: Turning aside to myths.
Phatboy writes:
People are tired of the same old religious tradition void of any power. Tired of T.V. hucksters who insult human intelligence. It worrys me that people such as Benny Hinn can teach thousands of people overseas their own brand of spirituality. The Bible warns of danger from Post Modern anything goes spirituality.
Couldn't agree more, except that from what I understand Benny Hinn's influence is greater in the west than it is overseas.
Phatboy writes:
The Bible can be a sound book if it is not abused through human misuse.
AMEN!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 06-04-2005 1:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 70 of 111 (214282)
06-04-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by GDR
06-04-2005 5:02 PM


I'm not saying that ID is science but I think that some day science might hit upon the point at which the natural interacts with the supernatural.
What is the supernatural? Like people claiming to see ghosts, or see the future?
I don't know of anything in the universe that is not "natural".
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 5:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 9:13 PM lfen has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 71 of 111 (214323)
06-04-2005 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by lfen
06-04-2005 7:54 PM


Ifen writes:
What is the supernatural? Like people claiming to see ghosts, or see the future?
I don't know of anything in the universe that is not "natural".
I know what you mean. To be honest I'm not really comfortable with the term. I should probably use physical and metaphysical.

This message is a reply to:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 72 of 111 (214340)
06-04-2005 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by GDR
06-04-2005 5:02 PM


We are getting closer. I'm not saying that ID is science but I think that some day science might hit upon the point at which the natural interacts with the supernatural.
When the supernatural interacts with the natural then it becomes observable and therefore natural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 5:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 9:51 PM tsig has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 73 of 111 (214348)
06-04-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by tsig
06-04-2005 9:37 PM


DHA writes:
When the supernatural interacts with the natural then it becomes observable and therefore natural.
I'm not a scientist so I have to deal with things on a basic and conceptual level.
Particle science talks about particles disappearing and reappearing, being annihilated and created etc, and to deal with this they talk about other dimensions.
Are those other dimensions the metaphysical? I don't know, but it seems to me that particle behaviour and other dimensions go beyond natural law.
It is just possible that we have wandered off topic here.
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-04-2005 06:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by tsig, posted 06-04-2005 9:37 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by tsig, posted 06-04-2005 10:14 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 06-05-2005 3:32 AM GDR has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 74 of 111 (214361)
06-04-2005 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by GDR
06-04-2005 9:51 PM


0ff topic
You are right, so no reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by GDR, posted 06-04-2005 9:51 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 75 of 111 (214415)
06-05-2005 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by GDR
06-04-2005 9:51 PM


Original Topic starter writes:
I've read a lot of posts where people describe their belief and how they've had such a moving experience. I understand that people have had a strong experience with Christianity and Jesus, but that doesn't mean you can logically feel that it is right or true.
Many people of other religions have had equally powerful experiences and connections with their holy books, priests, or Gods... if you believe the bible literally or if you truly believe that Jesus was the son of God, then you are in direct contradiction with other religions who have an equal claim on "truth" as you do.
Given that, how do you go on believing what you do? Faith? How can one version of faith be better than another??
GDR writes:
It is just possible that we have wandered off topic here.
I don't think that the metaphysical is necessarily off topic.
Is this a method of defining truth?
To me, the supernatural by definition is an unexplainable phenomena that could be entirely un-natural yet entirely experienced.
One time I distinctly heard several voices at once coming from a person who had no idea that it was happening. Were it a prank, I would have eventually known. Unexplainable? Definitely! Superbnatural? Maybe.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-05-2005 01:34 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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