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Author | Topic: Hitler, Evolution, and Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
If you call that an "assertion", then it will remain unsupported Your assertion was that HItler was using the word "Volk" in a traditional, non-racial sense. I was just wondering what you've got to back that up.
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Strictly speaking, I was trying to say that the German people heard the word Volk in a traditional sense. Hitler was an astute enough politician to know that and take advantage of it.
I drew the analogy of an American politician refering to the flag. If he says, "I love Old Glory", the audience says, "So do we." Their reaction is not based on whether or not his political views are the same as theirs. He could be adding under his breath, "... so I want an all-white America", but the audience doesn't hear that in his words. My understanding - such as it is - of German history and culture comes from what I've read over the course of a lifetime. I think you'll find it tallies pretty well with mainstream views. I don't have any references handy and I don't propose to go fishing in the "Nazi cesspool" to get them for you. Again, it is your claim that there is a link between Nazi dogma and Evolution. So far, all you have to back up that claim is a quote from a madman. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
In addition, it is possible to produce a viryually unlimited number of quotes from Hitler and other Nazi's where they specifically say they are acting from Christian morals. I've included a half dozen or so but there are literally hundreds of such quotes.
Hitler was a mad man but anti-semitism was, and still is, very common. His views on that subject were not much different than Henry Ford's or Thomas Edison's. Before transportation became difficult the German solution was to encourage resettlement to Palestine and many of the first kibbutz we established by pre-war Nazis. To attribute the horrors of the Holocaust to some Darwinian connection is as invalid as attributing it to Christianity and there is far more evidence for the Christian connection. Hitler would have found justification regardless of whether or not any of the outside influences existed.
If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939 Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'll get back to you, Jar. Got to do some homework first.
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Let's take, for example, Hitler and Nazism:--was he mainly Christian, as some might maintain by quoting what appear to be Christian passages from his speeches, or mainly pseudo-Darwinian, as I maintain? And how much did his purported Christian belief or purported pseudo-Darwinian belief influence Nazism? Hitler was far from Christian. He quoted christian passages to appeal to that demographic. More likely, according to a show that I am watching on the History Channel called "High Hitler", he was an abuser of a variety of drugs...uppers and downers. Of course we also know that Goering was addicted to Morphine and Cocaine. From this website called Holacaust History archive-- WEBSITE.WS - Your Internet Address For Life™ David Irving wrote a book, one of his more filler and fluff books on what kind of medicines, vitamins, minerals and anti-gas pills Hitler was taking by mouth and by direct intravenous injection (or was it intramuscular? I do not have my files here! I am going strictly by memory (faulty since the bomb and fire). But I did have the benefit of years of contact with Dr. Hans Dietrich Roehrs, who wrote a very important and hotly persecuted book in the 1960s entitled Adolf Hitler: Die Zerstoerung einer Persoenligkeit [Adolf Hitler: Destruction of a Personality], published or at least distributed by the Scharnhorst Buchgemeinschaft, in which he details how Morrell was manoeuvred into Hitler’s path — then inner circle — and how he compromised Hitler’s emotional and physical state of mind by the administration of potions which were, of all things imported from Portugal, via Hungary, via Prague to Berlin! Dr. Roehrs suspected that Hitler was being poisoned, and since he was the third highest doctor in the Third Reich, and, as a bureaucrat in Dr. Conti’s Health Ministry, he had access to the prescriptions and content of what Morrell gave Hitler! He began to investigate what Hitler was on! Dr. Roehrs wanted to see what the effects were, that these compounds produced, had some ordered and injected them into himself in the same doses Hitler was given by Morrell. He described to me what happened to him as the drugs took effect. He gave them to himself in the same time sequence Hitler got his -- a certain amount of time before an important speech in Warsaw before 500 doctors and health care professionals in the East in the 1940s! He said that he experienced a dissociation between his conscious mind and his personality — he gave a rousing speech, frequently interrupted by rounds of applause — which he experienced himself as if he was totally shielded, as if by a glass curtain, from his enthusiastic audience — to which he felt no connection, but an eerie separateness! An aloofness — other-worldly! After the speech he was introduced to selected members of the audience and political functionaries — again, they were not aware of his dissociated state! As it began to wear off he had the same feeling that comes associated with a hangover! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-07-2005 10:30 AM This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-07-2005 10:31 AM
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lfen Member (Idle past 4703 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
To attribute the horrors of the Holocaust to some Darwinian connection is as invalid as attributing it to Christianity and there is far more evidence for the Christian connection. jar, You raise an important point I think. Without the widespread antisemitism that seems to have been a fixture of many Christian denominations would there have been a holocaust at all? I don't think the connection was direct but I think there is a valid argument that Christian anti semitism provided the basis that was developed into the holocaust. There had been pograms and purgings and persecutions of Jews prior to Hitler. lfen
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Anti-semitism was also ubiquitous. It was not simply a German Phenomenon. It was absolutely a Christian driven phenomenon and around long before Darwin.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Strictly speaking, I was trying to say that the German people heard the word Volk in a traditional sense. Hitler was an astute enough politician to know that and take advantage of it. I have no problem with that idea. Here's a comment about the meaning of the word "volkisch": "'Volkisch' is impossible to translate in a single word. Literally meaning 'folkish,' it had overtones of racism; but to translate it simply as 'racist' is to ignore its folk-nationalistic implications" (91). John Toland, "Adolf Hitler" Vol 1., Doubleday, 1954.
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
delete double post
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-07-2005 02:21 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Careful how you use that word "Christian." I suppose that coming from a man who believes that faith and relationship stem from works rather than grace, I would expect such rubbish...but there is a vast difference between political professions of nationalist "christianity" and an individual who by grace has had their heart changed. It is much the same as the so called political "christians" such as Dubya...who are no more christian than Scandanavian! Anti-semitism was also ubiquitous. It was not simply a German Phenomenon. It was absolutely a Christian driven phenomenon and around long before Darwin. It is often true that any nation involved in nationalistic fervor has at its roots some religious zealots but religious zealots can say that they are christians and yet not fit the glass slipper. I often think that the same delusions within human nature that villified the Jews for the problems in Germany will rear its head again as modern day Christians are villified for the problems that keep America from achieving its place in the sun.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Please explain Anti-Semitism in a Non-Christian context.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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cmanteuf Member (Idle past 6791 days) Posts: 92 From: Virginia, USA Joined: |
Jar writes: Please explain Anti-Semitism in a Non-Christian context. The third Abrahamic religion seems to generate anti-semitism. ABE: Changed so this makes sense. Chris This message has been edited by cmanteuf, 06-07-2005 04:41 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18333 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There are those throughout History who have called themselves "Christian" yet were not. I would call it a spiritual warfare phenomenon, when someone feels "special" and they then see others as inferior. This is faulty human nature. One does not need to profess "christianity" to make it a part of their nature. Nationalism has often gone hand in hand with Christianity...I will give you that. Martin Luther said some anti-semetic things.
"Perhaps the most important reason the Holocaust happened is that the Church had forgotten its Jewish roots." I will agree with you that the church was guilty by doing nothing to stop the anti sematism. All that I am saying is that you can't link nationalistic fervor with Christians. Nationalism is itself a religion. It often masquerades as christianity but it is not. It is worship of country and flag and pride in ones position. We do it in America today. We are much above those inferior Muslim infidels who spawn terrorists. We are above those ...uh...homosexuals who are goin to hell! Hmmm...I am beginning to sound like the far Right! I see the link....but I don't accept that it is the fault of the christians. It must be those darn liberal atheists! I see your point. It is a link between Christian politics and anti sematism...but I stand by my claim that it is not any individual Christians fault. How can I explain anti sematism anyway???I look at it as a flaw in human nature...which is imperfect without the grace of Christ.
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mick Member (Idle past 5012 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
Phatboy writes: How can I explain anti sematism anyway???I look at it as a flaw in human nature... It's not a flaw in human nature. I suppose it arises from the fact that Jews never had a state during the early modern period when the spoils of Europe and elsewhere were being shared out. Exactly the same situation applies to Roma and Kurds. Mick
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6379 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
I suppose it arises from the fact that Jews never had a state during the early modern period when the spoils of Europe and elsewhere were being shared out. Exactly the same situation applies to Roma and Kurds. I'd suggest a big factor is the 'not fitting in' syndrome (not assimilating) for all of these groups. Being identifiably different to the majority has always been an open invitation to be persecuted - this is true at everything from the school playground level to the mass mentality or races, cultures and nations. In the specific case of the Jews I think they also suffered from being identified as 'the murderers of Christ' - which always seemed odd to me as if they hadn't got the Romans to crucify Jesus there wouldn't be any Christianity. Oops! Wrong Planet
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