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Author Topic:   Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 306 (213224)
06-01-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by nator
06-01-2005 3:39 PM


Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
First, if you want in you're in. I bet you and GOD will have hours of fun discussing the nuances of various oils and vinegars. Just imagine the varietals he's tasted and probably has on hand for you to sample. Remember that olive branch the dove brought back?
The second thing is you won't have to worry about Bible thumpers bugging you, they won't even get into the parking lot much less get to come to the the barbeque. One thing I look forward to is the near total lack of Christians that will be heaven. Instead, jess 'bout anyone will be able to belly up to the bar and if they can tell a good story or pass on some good information, they'll be welcome.
GOD's not cruel, though he may pull your leg some. If you've tried your best and not set out to deliberately hurt folk like those bigots supporting the 'Defense of Marriage Act' and other discriminatory legislation or tried to keep kids in ignorance like those pushing to teach Creationism and ID, you'll be more than welcome anytime.
This message has been edited by jar, 06-01-2005 08:04 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 3:39 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 9:48 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 306 (213318)
06-01-2005 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 10:00 PM


Re: Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
So then, how many good works get me into heaven Jar? 3? 300? If it's more or less for anyone else then God's righteousness is not absolute.
Actually, you don't even have to succeed at any of them. The message of Jesus is that GOD has forgiven almost everybody. Salvation is a gift, a gift freely given by GOD.
You can refuse the gift, for example, by supporting bigotry as so many Christians are doing today, by encouraging ignorance such as promoting teaching children Creationism, by preaching a version of Christianity that's exclusionary as opposed to inclusionary.
But the message GOD sent through Jesus life, teaching, death and resurrection is that ALL mankind is forgiven.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 10:00 PM J. Davis has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 143 of 306 (213535)
06-02-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Asgara
06-02-2005 1:00 PM


Re: Check mate
J. Davis has left the building. If he wishes to return he can email either you or me and explain. See Message 129.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Asgara, posted 06-02-2005 1:00 PM Asgara has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 240 of 306 (215319)
06-08-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Modulous
06-07-2005 11:13 AM


Re: Belief a choice?
We aren't in the science forum any more Toto. This is the faith and belief forum you may notice. Specifically we are discussing "is Christ cruel for damning Schraf to hell for her inability to believe?". In order for us to discuss it, we must work on the basis that Christ exists, he his divine, the Bible is the Holy inspired word of God and so on.
But we must also understand that not everyone agrees with the initial premise. Many of us believe that GOD hasn't damned Scraf to hell for her inability to believe.
Many years ago I was a member of a social club that had a rule for its members. If you missed a meeting you got fined five dollars. That rule did not apply to non-members though. Non-members could miss as many meetings as they liked with no penalty.
Schraf is not a Christian. There is no rule requiring her to believe in GOD. She does not get fined for missing a meeting. The wonderful message of Jesus Christ is that GOD forgave and forgives everyone, Christian and non-christian alike.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Modulous, posted 06-07-2005 11:13 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Modulous, posted 06-08-2005 1:05 PM jar has replied
 Message 263 by Brian, posted 06-09-2005 2:44 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 306 (215379)
06-08-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Modulous
06-08-2005 1:05 PM


Re: Belief a choice?
The later. With certain provisions. Your personal behavior will affect your chance for salvation, but the bar for admittance is far lower for Non-Christians than Christians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Modulous, posted 06-08-2005 1:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by MangyTiger, posted 06-08-2005 6:25 PM jar has replied
 Message 256 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2005 12:37 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 244 of 306 (215443)
06-08-2005 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by MangyTiger
06-08-2005 6:25 PM


Re: Belief a choice?
Not exactly yet partially. Christians should have a moral guide, others may as well but it's a given if you're in the club. In addition you need to know the secret handshake and stuff, and, of course, believe in GOD.
That is one big reason IMHO why Schraf has a high probability of being saved while most Christians don't have even a hope.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by MangyTiger, posted 06-08-2005 6:25 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 7:17 PM jar has replied
 Message 247 by NosyNed, posted 06-08-2005 8:18 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 246 of 306 (215454)
06-08-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
06-08-2005 7:17 PM


So you're something special?
GOD should love you more than She loves the Atheist that denies Her? Ain't you somthing special?
Jesus came as GOD's sign of salvation for ALL mankind. Jesus' life, death and resurrection were a message to us all. His teachings were about how we should live, "Love GOD and love others as you love yourself".
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 7:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 9:41 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 248 of 306 (215476)
06-08-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by NosyNed
06-08-2005 8:18 PM


Re: A lower bar?
Gee, thanks Jar for offering but no one has convinced me that it is a good place to go.
Well, I can't imagine that anyone would be forced to go. But consider; there will be a whole lot fewer Christians there than here.
However, it does seem fair to lower the "goodness" bar for those who do it without consideration of eternal reward or eternal punishement. Seems to me that this should lower the limit a looong way.
Well, I think that was exactly the message Jesus was trying to teach. That's the whole issue about works. If you do works for the reward at the end, if you believe in GOD for the beni's, then odds are you'll find that those works, that belief counts for zilch. Do good because it's the right thing to do.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by NosyNed, posted 06-08-2005 8:18 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Nighttrain, posted 06-08-2005 9:39 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 306 (215492)
06-08-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Nighttrain
06-08-2005 9:39 PM


Re: A lower bar?
Yup.
That's why they are more likely to be saved than a Christian.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Nighttrain, posted 06-08-2005 9:39 PM Nighttrain has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 252 of 306 (215494)
06-08-2005 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
06-08-2005 9:41 PM


Re: So you're something special?
Does your church actually teach this pap or is it your own religion?
It's called Christianity. Maybe you've heard of it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 9:41 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 258 of 306 (215540)
06-09-2005 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Modulous
06-09-2005 12:37 AM


Re: Belief a choice?
GOD isn't cruel. He forgives everyone regardless of whether or not they believe in him. But it's still possible for you to screw it up through behavior.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2005 12:37 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 1:24 AM jar has replied
 Message 265 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2005 7:51 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 306 (215599)
06-09-2005 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
06-09-2005 1:24 AM


Re: Belief a choice?
You really don't understand a thing that Jesus said or did. Everyone should repent mistakes. Jew, Christian, Atheist, we should regret doing wrong and try to do right. And believe His message, "Love GOD and love others as you love yourself". Belief is shown by your actions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 1:24 AM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 269 of 306 (215602)
06-09-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Brian
06-09-2005 2:44 AM


Re: What did we do wrong?
Everyone, Jew, Christian, Believer, non-Believer, screws up regularly. I believe the Confession, found in BCP, covers it pretty well.
Most merciful God,
we confess that we have sinned against thee
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved thee with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
Note the part "by what we have done, and by what we have left undone." These are what matter, the small things that happen every day, the person we didn't help or the rude comment we make. GOD even forgives the major screwups within reason. Just how high that limit is I don't know.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Brian, posted 06-09-2005 2:44 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Brian, posted 06-09-2005 1:31 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 270 of 306 (215603)
06-09-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Modulous
06-09-2005 7:51 AM


Re: Belief a choice?
I don't reject that assumption.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Modulous, posted 06-09-2005 7:51 AM Modulous has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 306 (215655)
06-09-2005 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Brian
06-09-2005 1:31 PM


Re: What did we do wrong?
For example, I don't really see any need for belief in Jesus resurrection in your faith, and this seems central to being a Christian.
It is, to being a Christian. But we're dealing with a couple different concepts and POVs here. There are those that want to limit GOD to being able to only talk to them. He's MY GOD, not yours.
I find that concept pretty silly. If GOD exists, and I believe he does, why would he limit himself to talking to only a handfull of the world's inhabitants? Is he so limted in his communication skills that he could not reach out to everyone through the media and medium suited to Their learning styles?
As you have said before, many atheists will be in heaven before many so-called Christians, but an atheist rejects Jesus' divinity and resurrection.
Yup, and because they do so they can never be a Christian. They can't belong to the Club or learn the secret handshake.
What does that have to do with salvation?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Brian, posted 06-09-2005 1:31 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Brian, posted 06-09-2005 4:24 PM jar has replied

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