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Author Topic:   Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country?
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 308 (215609)
06-09-2005 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
06-07-2005 7:03 PM


Re: Muslim moderates
quote:
The problem with Islam is in its holy books and its history. However moderate Muslims may in fact be, as long as the Koran is their guide to any great extent they are being conditioned against the values of the West. To what extent can a Muslim truly respect and incorporate our Constitutional values -- freedom, equality, democratic politics? The doctrines of Islam could not be more opposed to them. It must be difficult to seek the freedoms of the West when you are tied to a Muslim mindset.
This has gone off-topic, with the originator if the thread nowhere to be seen, but I believe I have to correct you on this--
Freedom: The Qur'an respects freedom and rights, including women's rights and freedom of religion. It has limits though.
Equality: The Qur'an declares all humankind is equal, and our merits are judged through our actions.
Democratic politics:--The Qur'an says nothing on this, but it leans a bit towards theocracy. But the prescribed laws are few, and it leaves a lot of things to be decided by humans, of which democracy is IMO a possibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 06-07-2005 7:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:01 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 287 of 308 (215613)
06-09-2005 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by CanadianSteve
06-09-2005 9:50 AM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Overall the, academic freedom is good parts of the transcription were great! I doubt anyone here would argue with that. Here are some problems though and the major sticking points come from these:
It is not an education when a mid-term examination contains a required essay on the topic, Explain Why President Bush Is A War Criminal, as did a criminology exam at the University of Northern Colorado in 2003.
A valid topic for a criminology class especially one dealing with international law. How better to put a students objectivity to the test by making them build a case against their own president. Clearly a case of allowable controversy used in the classroom legitimately. The problem is that he mixes this invalid objection with a valid one:
It is not an education when a professor of property law harangues his class on why all Republicans are racist as happened at the Colorado University Law School in 2004.
Clearly a violation of the academic responsibilities of a professor. I hope something was done about this. But then we bookend it with another invalid criticism:
It is not an education when a widely-used required Peace Studies textbook, described by the professor as a masterpiece, explains that the Soviet Union was a force for peace in the Cold War and the United States was not, that revolutionary violence is the only justifiable violence, and that the United States is the greatest terrorist state and does so without making students aware that there are other interpretations of this history and other views that should be considered on these matters. This extremist text, Peace and Conflict Studies, written by two university professors who explain in their preface that they are partisans of the political left is the required academic textbook for students in the Peace Studies course at Ohio State University (Marion).
CLEARLY Peace Studies is a special topics class and nothing that any student would be forced to take for any reason. We had plenty of those classes available when I went to school and they are necessarily the fringe and unimportant classes that few if any take except for personal interest. Also, in those classes, often there would be many texts that were covered often carrying opposing views because there is no hard curriculum for those kinds of classes. No mention was made of this being the exclusive text of the class.
Here then rises my first objection. If there are so many examples of this, why are two of them chosen that need a stretch and play of words to make them seem extreme? In school I was glad for the times I was forced to challenge my established thinking. I consider those times, albeit uncomfortable at the time, some of the greatest learning experiences of my life. How much easier would it have been for that criminology professor to make everyone build a case for Saddam Hussein as a war criminal? That would have been way too easy and not required his students to think out of the box at all.
Three principal objections have been made to the Senate Bill 24, all of them groundless. The first is that the Bill would impose political standards on higher education. This is an invention of opponents of the Bill, whose text could not be clearer on this matter: students [shall] have access to a broad range of serious scholarly opinion pertaining to the subjects they study. In other words, the standards imposed by the Bill are scholarly not political.’
Here he totally misses the point. That excerpt from the bill is NOT objective in regards to what is considered serious scholarly opinion. Who decides this? The law makers? Judges? Public opinion?
Here then is my second major objection. What determines serious scholarly opinion needs to be decided by accreditation boards and the scholars in the field. This is how it works now and there is already a system in place to punish schools that don’t follow this. They do not receive or maintain their accreditation.
What this is doing is removing one of the important components of academia which is the self imposing checks derived from competition and placing them in law. Imagine if we started telling manufacturing companies that there was only 1 legal way to make a widget rather than allowing them to compete with each other to produce a better and better widget; each step of the way ensuring quality and innovation.
This ties into my overall objection which no-one has yet to respond to which is what reason a conservative has to impose this extremely non-conservative legislation? When it comes to the arena of business or commerce there is no way a republican would be caught dead fighting so hard to impose similar restrictions. Conservatives are well known for their stance wanting less government oversight on many issues so what is the difference here? Why should we ignore the religious and political extremism demonstrated by this person with regards to this supposed neutral legislation as a motivating factor?
The AAUP has particularly singled out the following clause in the Senate Bill for disapproval: Faculty and instructors shall not infringe the academic freedom and quality of education of their students by persistently introducing controversial matter into the classroom or coursework that has no relation to their subject of study and that serves no legitimate pedagogical purpose. According to the AAUP and opponents of the Bill generally, this stipulation is an infringement of the free speech rights of professors.
In fact, the issue here is not the free speech rights of professors as private citizens, but what is appropriate to a classroom, and in particular what form of discourse constitutes indoctrination as distinct from education.
The sticking point here is that when a professor crosses the line and starts ranting about politics in an engineering class that he needs to loose his job. What this legislation would do is all of the sudden make their coursework a civil liability. This will stifle speech in the classroom and discourage people from teaching in higher education which always has a hunger for more quality instructors.
There are certain things you should be civilly liable for. In my job I am civilly liable for the purposeful or accidental release of medical information. I can be sued if I make a programming error that causes patient records to be made public or sent to an unauthorized third party. This is a case where that makes perfect sense. Taking a professor to court for what he/she says in the classroom that is not related to his/her topic is a direct violation of free speech. Granted, he/she is not protected from being fired for ignoring his/her responsibility as an instructor but in no way should there be any possibility of civil discourse against an instructor
The reasons for enacting Senate Bill 24 are that too many faculty members at our universities no longer observe their responsibility to teach and not to indoctrinate students; that university administrations no longer enforce their faculty guidelines on academic freedom;
This has yet to be demonstrated. Bare links do not count on this board. Assertions count even less.
and that the existing guidelines are not codified as student rights; as result students currently have no way to redress their grievances.
How about we require universities to install a grievance process for students to use when issues like this come up rather than institute sweeping legislation and unnecessary government involvement? Of course no one could suggest this because any institution of higher learning worth its salt already has this and to impose anything less than what is being offered will not satisfy the religious and political extremist goals of the speaker.
In this situation legislatures have a fiduciary responsibility as the elected representatives of the taxpayers who fund these institutions -- to step in and provide a remedy.
This is correct but misguided. It is first their responsibility to determine objectively that there is a situation needing remedy. If this has already been done then there should be no problem for either you or Faith to link to a committee report detailing the state of academic freedom in state schools of higher education.
Here lies my last objection. While making law, legislators should be asking the question of where is the evidence of need for this law. That is why they (should) make committees and entertain lobbying efforts and commission studies to determine what is actually true rather than irresponsibly constructing legislation without objective knowledge.
Far be it from me to question favoring the few glossy examples of a politician with an agenda over an objective bi-partisan commission on the real state of our institutions of higher learning.
{minor spelling edits and such}
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-09-2005 09:19 AM

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-09-2005 9:50 AM CanadianSteve has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5174 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 288 of 308 (215621)
06-09-2005 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by CanadianSteve
06-09-2005 9:50 AM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
"The Report admonishes faculty to avoid "taking unfair advantage of the student's immaturity by indoctrinating him with the teacher's own opinions before the student has had an opportunity to fairly examine other opinions upon the matters in question, and before he has sufficient knowledge and ripeness of judgment to be entitled to form any definitive opinion of his own."
This seems to me very condescending to the student. As Jazzns and Chiroptera have pointed out, good students are interested in hearing professor's opinions on issues related to a course of study - that is what they are paying for. I don't think I know any university students so 'immature' and naive that they are going to de 'indoctrinated' by any professor's opinions. If they are that shallow and gullible (or lack that much 'ripeness of judgement'), they probably don't belong in university in the first place and are only there because their rich parents made them go and paid for the tuition.
"express opinions in a partisan manner on controversial issues irrelevant to the academic subject, and even grade students in a manner designed to enforce their conformity to professorial prejudices."
Inflammatory and largely unsubstantiated. This is not a problem in the university system.
"It is not an education when a mid-term examination contains a required essay on the topic, "Explain Why President Bush Is A War Criminal," (etc. etc.) "without making students aware that there are other interpretations of this history and other views that should be considered on these matters."
Give me a break. Do your really believe any student worth his/her salt would not *assume* that there are alternative interpretations and views to any of these asserted stances, and would not investigate them in order to better critique these supposed political indoctrinations? This requires legislation? This goofball Horowitz apparently thinks all university students are gullible little robots ripe for programming - and I bet he would love to be their programmer.
None of these examples constitute 'indoctrination' in a unviersity course (maybe in an elementary chool, but not a university). First, the primary lesson of higher education is critical thinking. So any extremist opinion or statement can be thrown out as a straw man for its heuristic value in an assignment. Just as I might assign an essay saying "Explain why all behavior is adaptive in the context of evolutionary thought". It isn't, and the path to the highest grade is actually via taking a stance counter to this statement instead of being sucked into it. It's the same with "Explain why Bush is a war criminal". Even though I come close to agreeing with the statement, were I faced with it as an essay, I would feel compelled to both prosecute him and defend him in order to do the assigment justice. Regardless of what I really thought, I would *have* explore both sides of the coin to get a good grade - no way around it. We just don't need little twits like Horowitz second guessing professor's assignments who have far more education than he does. He apparently has no respect for the student's ability to think for him or herself.
" When professors plaster their office doors with partisan cartoons that mock the deeply held beliefs of students on matters like abortion and party affiliation - which they regularly do - this creates a wall between faculty and students, which is injurious to the counseling process. How can a professor teach a student whom he regards as a partisan adversary? The answer is he cannot."
This is total crap. No professor is going to see a student of opposing political conviction as an adversary for that sole reason. I suggest that what Horowtiz wants is to simply prevent professors from expressing any political opinion because their views are respected by students, and most currently oppose the dogma he would promote. So this creep want's to stop us from putting political cartoons on our doors? He can get lost. We have as much right to express our views and ideas as any other citizen. Students of that age can make up their own minds - and most already have by the time they get to university.
The only part of this I can agree with (in pronicple) is that teachers "should be careful not to introduce into their teaching controversial matter which has no relation to their subject." However, the whole 'relation' issue could potentially be tenous to define. For example, say I give a lecture in grant writing, about how to get research projects funded through various government sources. I might find myself expressing some opinions on how corrupt I think the whole process can be, and how the current administration has no appreciation for what science should and should not be funded, but I see recognition of problems with the system as integral to understanding how to play the game successfully. I don't want to have to look over my shoulder for some little fascist puke like Horowtiz running after me with a law suit for discussing political opinions in a science class.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-09-2005 9:50 AM CanadianSteve has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:03 PM EZscience has not replied
 Message 293 by Chiroptera, posted 06-09-2005 12:24 PM EZscience has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 289 of 308 (215622)
06-09-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Andya Primanda
06-09-2005 11:11 AM


Re: Muslim moderates
Can you quote the Qur'an on women's rights and freedom of religion and where it judges all mankind as equal please? And are you denying the parts of the Qur'an that give a completely different picture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-09-2005 11:11 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 290 of 308 (215624)
06-09-2005 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by EZscience
06-09-2005 11:59 AM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Your repulsive rude doctrinaire attitudes of course show exactly why Horowitz's work is needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by EZscience, posted 06-09-2005 11:59 AM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Jazzns, posted 06-09-2005 12:15 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 308 (215625)
06-09-2005 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by CanadianSteve
06-09-2005 9:50 AM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Any educator that does not challenge EVERY belief that a student holds is not doing his or her job.
It's called Education.
The goal is not to just pass on wrote learning, it's to develop the ability of the Student to think critically. The best grades I ever got (and I'll admit those were few) were when I wrote something that challenged what the teacher asked.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-09-2005 9:50 AM CanadianSteve has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by EZscience, posted 06-09-2005 12:43 PM jar has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 292 of 308 (215629)
06-09-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
06-09-2005 12:03 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
What is the purpose of this post? While I do enjoy the occasional snipes on this board when they also make a point I fail to the see the substance.
In particular, where was he rude?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:39 PM Jazzns has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 308 (215631)
06-09-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by EZscience
06-09-2005 11:59 AM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
quote:
I suggest that what Horowtiz wants is to simply prevent professors from expressing any political opinion because their views are respected by students, and most currently oppose the dogma he would promote.
Well, Horowitz certainly seems to be on a crusade. Here is an article about Horowitz from The Nation.
What I find especially interesting is this quote:
But what about the UCLA survey of 35,000 professors cited by Robert Hughes in his book Culture of Complaint, which revealed that only 4.9 percent called themselves "far left," while 17.8 percent put down "conservative." Horowitz's voice rises to a shout. "Norman Podhoretz cannot retire and be a professor anywhere! Clancy Sigal, the novelist, is a fucking professor at USC! He has no degrees. He's written books that nobody reads, and he's got a sinecure."
There it is again: hard data dismissed by anectdote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by EZscience, posted 06-09-2005 11:59 AM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Jazzns, posted 06-09-2005 12:35 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:46 PM Chiroptera has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 294 of 308 (215634)
06-09-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Chiroptera
06-09-2005 12:24 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Quite the bastion of rationality this guy is.
WOW!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Chiroptera, posted 06-09-2005 12:24 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 295 of 308 (215635)
06-09-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Jazzns
06-09-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
In particular, where was he rude?
some little fascist puke like Horowtiz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Jazzns, posted 06-09-2005 12:15 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 299 by Jazzns, posted 06-09-2005 12:48 PM Faith has replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5174 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 296 of 308 (215636)
06-09-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by jar
06-09-2005 12:06 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
jar writes:
Any educator that does not challenge EVERY belief that a student holds is not doing his or her job.
Exactly right. And every student that does not challenge and critique everything they hear or read while at university is not doing their job either. Horowitz's whole enterprise here is based on the specious assumption that university students are easily 'indoctrinated' and need legal protection from the mean old professors with a political agenda. Well its obvious that he is the one with the political agenda and the students should be just as offended by it as the professors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 06-09-2005 12:06 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:50 PM EZscience has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 297 of 308 (215637)
06-09-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Chiroptera
06-09-2005 12:24 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
You take that piece for truth with all its characterizations of Horowitz's shouting and so on, without asking if he was really shouting or they were just embellishing to give a bad impression? And what about what he actually said? That piece is a smear piece.
What people SAY they are and what they are are not always identical. Many who really are on the Left notoriously consider themselves less than Left. Liberals think they are mainstream. Conservatives are treated as if we have no right to exist. Remarkable.
What Horowitz is doing is so obviously reasonable and needed that the bizarre objections, the apologetics on behalf of the indoctrination methods themselves, and attempts to smear him here do nothing but prove how desperately needed it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Chiroptera, posted 06-09-2005 12:24 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Chiroptera, posted 06-09-2005 12:51 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 303 by EZscience, posted 06-09-2005 12:52 PM Faith has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5174 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 298 of 308 (215638)
06-09-2005 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
06-09-2005 12:39 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
And to you he is what?
A visionary leader of the student's rights movement who should one day be enshrined alongside the likes of the four students who died at Kent State ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:39 PM Faith has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 299 of 308 (215639)
06-09-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
06-09-2005 12:39 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Noted.
Now how about a response to my open question?
That or anything else really that would actually contribute to the discussion. No sarcasm intended.
What about my idea for a comission to go search for the evidence that you and CS seem to be struggling to find? Don't you agree that law making should be based on an objective need?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:52 PM Jazzns has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 300 of 308 (215640)
06-09-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by EZscience
06-09-2005 12:43 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Exactly right. And every student that does not challenge and critique everything they hear or read while at university is not doing their job either.
Absolute denial of the dilemma a conservative or religious student is in who DARES to challenge and critique what the leftist professor dishes out!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by EZscience, posted 06-09-2005 12:43 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
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