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Author | Topic: Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I grew up in the Church. I was in the nursey as a babe and graduated up through the classes through adulthood. Went through the classes and baptised at 13. Had all the emotional highs of baptism, revivals, etc. All I truly know of God is what is in the book and what the churches I've attended have taught me. No true knowledge of God came through any other path. I looked at nature as a gift from God because that is what I was taught. I've never been to the Grand Canyon. I've been taught that it exists and how it probably came to be. People who have visited the Grand Canyon have told me about it. Now I accept that it is there until I go there and find that it isn't. I accepted that the Christian God existed until I looked outside the Bible and he wasn't there. As I've said before, Christians can't or won't explain how one is supposed to recognize this revelation of knowledge from God. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
If the Chrisitan God or other religious entities were truly a knowable being outside of the pages and imaginations that house them, then believers could share the steps to knowing God that all could follow.
Whether there is one supreme being that started this universe machine, I don't know, but, IMO, a known being is not what religion worships. In answer to your question, No, I do not believe in the concept of God that Christianity presents. You have yet to show me that God is DETERMINED to allow evidence of his existence. Because quite frankly an all powerful being who is determined to allow evidence would be very evident. This message has been edited by purpledawn, 06-11-2005 07:13 AM "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Excuse me, but you started this second thread and you called me out. I said quite clearly in the other thread that you weren't understanding what I'm saying and you still aren't.
quote:The post you are referring to was in response to Faith's question of: Do you have a clear idea of what sort of proof would convince you personally? My reply gave what I considered to be evidence that would convince me personally of the existence of God. If I believed in the existence of the Christian God today, would I need proof? quote:I told you to check out threads that I had started and other posts that I have made. I also said in a later post that since I see the reality of the Bible, I am trying to keep my wording within the Christian belief system since the OP assumes the existence of God, which might make my personal position a little confusing. I am limited within this F&B forum, so I apologize if I come across vague or misleading. Since you do not wish to discuss the evidence itself, there is nothing for us to discuss. Good Day! "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
This is my last try, so please read what I am writing and not what you think I'm writing.
The original OP: Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? This question is present tense, today, the here and now. Your contention is that God does not withhold evidence to generate faith. Unfortunately crashfrog's statement deals with the present and your arguments deal with the past. Crashfrog's statement deals with reality outside the Bible and your arguments deal with evidence within the Bible. IMO all you have shown with your copius verbage is that the authors of the Christian Bible felt that God provided evidence in their day and age. God was (past tense) willing to allow evidence during the Bible age. By removing the the "scientifically substantiated" part of crashfrog's statement all you have left us with is that you have a dragon in your garage. All you have alluded to as evidence in this day and age is personal revelation. Unfortunately personal revelation cannot be substantiated outside the individual. If all you wished to show was that the Bible showed that in the past God did not withhold evidence to generate faith, then you found scripture that shows that, but then there are scriptures that can be interpreted as otherwise, such as Hebrews 11. The Bible covers both sides of the coin. My questions deal with the here and now. Does God allow evidence of his existence today that can be substantiated? Since any evidence provided today is not written in the Bible, the evidence would need to be discussed and since you do not wish to dicuss the evidence, we have no discussion. IMO your thread ended up dealing with the past and not the present. This statement of yours pretty much sums up my belief that mankind created the concept of God.quote: This message has been edited by purpledawn, 06-12-2005 08:38 AM "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
From original OP.
Do you think God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence -- or do you think that God is determined to allow ample proof or evidence of his existence? Mr. Ex Nihilo writes: It was crashfrog that pointed out some claim that God does not allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated, because to do so would eliminate the need for faith. Unfortunately, Mr. Ex Nihilo has not provided any support that God is DETERMINED to allow proof, scientifically substantiated or otherwise, of his existence TODAY. IMO, if a God is DETERMINED to allow his existence to be known to all humans today, then his existence would be known to all people and by all means of substantiation. If a God is DETERMINED not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith, then this God is concealing his existence from those without faith. Although we can't know the intent behind the concealment, we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence. Whether it is tradition or from the Bible, there are religious teachings that God conceals Himself and desires that we seek Him with all our heart and soul. If a God is DETERMINED not to allow evidence of his existence to be known to anyone today, then he won't. IMO, the lack of scientifically substantiated evidence of his existence would support this. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That's why my post was to DominionSeraph and not you. I enjoy discussing and am open to learning. I feel in this thread and the first you seem more intent on battle.
quote:You ask how I know. I gave an opinion, I don't know anything concerning this for fact, that's why the IMO. This whole thread is nothing more than our opinions and speculations. We aren't discussing whether God exists or not, but supposedly whether he conceals himself from humans. Since this is in the Faith and Belief forum, I assumed that the existence of God was a given for this thread. Was I wrong? So IMO a God who is DETERMINED to make himself known to all people would not overlook all means necessary to make sure his existence is known. In Message 37 I gave three scenerios I feel are possible.
purpledawn writes: If a God is DETERMINED not to allow his existence to be known to those without faith, then this God is concealing his existence from those without faith. Although we can't know the intent behind the concealment, we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence. quote:This is why I don't feel that you truly read my posts without looking for a battle. I gave you a possible WHY. (we could speculate that the intent is to generate faith, since one would need faith to see the evidence). Try explaining why you think it is an unreasonable speculation. quote:I didn't say the scripture supported it. I said there are religious teachings. IMO, teachings can be gleaned from the Bible without the Bible actually supporting the teaching. quote:I've got over 40 years of Christianity under my belt. I didn't really keep notes on the sermons or all the books I've read. But there are scriptures that allude to God concealing himself.
Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. From the internet we have:
Jewish Chassidut reveals to us the drama of God’s creation of the universe. It is like a game of hide-and-seek. In this Divinely inspired game, God conceals Himself, but He desires that we seek Him. He promises us that if we seek Him with all our heart and soul, we will ultimately find Him. A quote by Blaise Pascal used by Rev. Dr. Paul Weston in a sermon at St. Mary's Church, Cambridge. 'Faith' therefore has to do with personal encounter rather than with theoretical engagement. In fact, as Blaise Pascal the 17th century French philosopher put it, the search for 'faith' which assumes that it will be born out of an examination of religious 'theory' is likely to 'miss' God altogether. 'God conceals himself from those who examine him,' he wrote, 'but reveals himself to those who search for him.' So there is theological evidence that God conceals himself. The purpose can only be speculated. Now whether the evangelists or apologist who have preached that God conceals himself to generate faith are Biblically supported, I don't know. Didn't think about it at the time. But crashfrog is right in that those teachings are out there. If you feel that those teachings are incorrect then correct their error reasonably.
quote:Good grief! Read what I wrote. If a God is determined not to allow proof of his existence, but we had scientifically stubstantiated evidence, then obviously the God wasn't doing very good at concealing himself. So lack of evidence would be one support for this scenerio, IMO. You need to clarify your position and what you want out of this thread. Are you trying to disprove the teaching that God conceals scientific evidence of himself from humans today to generate faith? Are you trying to say that no one teaches that scenerio? Are you trying to say that there is ample evidence today, scientific or otherwise, of God's existence? Or are you saying that God conceals himself from everyone for no reason at all? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Excellent idea! quote: I will enjoy my beautiful purple candle that has never been lit. Take Care "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
We are so far out of sync it is becoming laughable.
The story you shared is actually one of my favorites and I use it quite often with Christians who are turning away help that is right in front of them to wait for a more spectacular solution they want from God. This story is about salvation (being saved from an ordeal) and my candle is about confirmation. Lighting my own candle does not confirm God's existence. The Bible shows that God has given confirmation specific to what was requested. Gideon made a specific request for cofirmation and God confirmed as requested. (Judges 6:36-40) So I do not consider my request to be unreasonable if God wants us to know of his existence without a doubt. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No. Since the Christian God is supposedly capable of parting the red sea, making wet wood burn, and directing the dew; a simple candle flame is a piece of cake. Since religions are unable to provide consistent information, the candle is the most direct route for concrete varification of his existence.
quote:Confirmation (something that proves the truth or validity of) is not salvation (rescue). quote:I understand the basics of the "faith" very well. I also understand dogma and tradition and how they developed. I am not a fan of dogma and tradition. quote:This story deals with the temptation (testing) of Jesus. He didn't stop the fast by eating, he wasn't bought off, and he didn't throw himself off a building since he knew Satan was quoting lines from a song. This story wasn't about Satan trying to confirm that God existed or that Jesus was the son of God. Being Satan, he already knew. quote:What scriptures lead you to believe that? quote:Yes, if the Christian God exists, has the powers that are attributed to him and wants people to know that he exists. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No it is not worship (devotion for a deity). My candle is not a deity. quote:I wasn't looking for confirmation of salvation. I'm not in need of rescuing. quote:Are you saying that God is unable or unwilling to reveal himself to those without faith or that revealing himself is the reward for seeking him? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:But as a Christian I already believed that God, as Christianity presented him, existed. The confirmation is that of the Christian God. Does the God they present exist outside of the mind and literature? Even Gideon asked for confirmation that it was the Lord talking to him. (Of course Gideon wasn't Christian)
Judges6:17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. So I figure if an angel of the Lord can make fire flare from a rock, he can light a simple candle. So I could conclude that since my candle was not lit by God or an angel of God, that the Christian religion is not presenting the truth or that their God does not exist outside of the mind and literature.
quote:Why not? quote:Gideon didn't NEED God to make a fire from the rock to consume the offering. He was capable of building a fire for the offering himself. Gideon also didn't NEED dew on the fleece. The confirmation was what he needed not the result of the action. I can light the candle with a match or lighter, I cannot light the candle without a match or lighter. For God to light the candle is just as astounding as making the rock burn, the fleece wet, or wet wood burn (Yes, Elijah).
quote:And what verses in the Bible support this opinion? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Now that I have my Christian Bluegrass CD in, I will see if I can explain. Where to start? Christianity does not present its God in a consistent manner. Dogma, tradition, evangelist, and preachers all bring their own opinions, rules, etc. to the mix. Amongst all this copious and sometimes conflicting information, is poor, poor pitiful me. I was quite content not studying the Bible and just being a good person. Unfortunately the churches I attended felt otherwise and insisted that I needed to attend Bible Study. My husband and I finally relented over 10 years ago. I went to many Bible studies, and bought the required books and tapes. I am an avid reader and had no problem doing the required homework. Unfortunately the more I learned the more I saw that what the teachers and preachers presented wasn't what the Bible was saying. Now I have conflicting information. Bible information conflicts with teacher, preachers conflict with preachers, etc. Nothing was consistent. Where does a girl turn? To her Daddy of course! Well in true Christian fashion I turned to my Father in Heaven. The more I prayed the clearer things got, unfortunately they weren't in favor of Christianity. So the ultimate question to God is: Are the tenets of Christianity true? If yes, light the candle. Since the candle did not flame, either 1) an existing God does not support Christianity or 2) No God exists outside of literature and the mind. Quite frankly, all your explanations have really supported the idea that God exists in the mind. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Ignorance is bliss, right? Against my own conscience or God? So Satan wanted me to study the Bible? quote:That doesn't make sense. quote:Great, but who are you? You say they aren't true, they say they are true, someone else says they are half true. You've also presented ideas that, IMO, aren't supported by the Bible. I guess truth is in the eye of the presenter. I have more inner peace now than when I was a Christian. IMO, I've matured beyond the need for religion. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Then you would note incorrectly. I'm always ready to study the scriptures. You still haven't provided the ones that say God reveals himself omni-presently -- and he's talking to everyone who ever existed, exists, or ever will exist -- right now at this moment as we speak. as you stated in Message 50. If you have explained this in detail then refer us back to the posts that support this opinion. I don't recall them. You didn't explain what grace has to do with doubt. It could also mean that God's grace is sufficient to carry your through whatever doubts you might have. Plus, what scripture supports that opinion? I have answered your questions, you just don't like my answers and I don't like dogma. If I have missed an important question that deals with this thread, then enlighten me. Not sure why you have such a problem with my candle, but what you have shown me by your own answers is that God is determined not to allow scientific substantiation for his existence. The candle would have been a very simple form of substantiation. You have also made it clear that it requires faith (belief without proof) before God will reveal himself. In this whole discussion about the candle you have not shown me a god who is determined to make his prescence known to all people. So if God's existence was scientifically substantiated, there would be no need for faith (belief without proof). There still would be faith (complete trust).
quote:Again you conclude wrong. I'm not confused by the Bible. It says what it says. Religion is confused. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
The scriptures that are deemed to mean omnipresence, don't really describe past, present and future. (Psalm 139:7-10; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:23,24). They deal with seeing though, not communicating.
They also don't describe God doing more than one thing at a time. I don't recall a scripture that describes God as doing more than one thing at a time. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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