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Member (Idle past 3911 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Academic Bill of Rights | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
How do we differentiate tough professors that demand critical thinking and challenge opinions and professors who are intimidating students? quote: So, a History professor who ridicules and absolutely refuses to give any credence to the "other side" of the "Holocaust issue" is "intimidating students", not "demanding critical thinking and challenging opinions"? Is it wrong for this History professor to ridicule Holocaust denial?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Care to show evidence of this claim?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Can you show me the language in the bill which protects curriculum from censorship and is restricted only to non-curricular statements?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
link to essay
An excerpt:
Skepticism of professional knowledge, such as that which underlies the Academic Bill of Rights, is deep and corrosive. This is well illustrated by its requirement that "academic institutions . . . maintain a posture of organizational neutrality with respect to the substantive disagreements that divide researchers on questions within . . . their fields of inquiry."7 The implications of this requirement are truly breathtaking. Academic institutions, from faculty in departments to research institutes, perform their work precisely by making judgments of quality, which necessarily require them to intervene in academic controversies. Only by making such judgments of quality can academic institutions separate serious work from mere opinion, responsible scholarship from mere polemic. Because the advancement of knowledge depends upon the capacity to make judgments of quality, the Academic Bill of Rights would prevent colleges and universities from achieving their most fundamental mission.
When carefully analyzed, therefore, the Academic Bill of Rights undermines the very academic freedom it claims to support. It threatens to impose administrative and legislative oversight on the professional judgment of faculty, to deprive professors of the authority necessary for teaching, and to prohibit academic institutions from making the decisions that are necessary for the advancement of knowledge. For these reasons Committee A strongly condemns efforts to enact the Academic Bill of Rights.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Faith, you couldn't have possibly read the entire AAUP essay explaining why they believe the ABOR is a bad idea since I only posed the link a minute ago.
Maybe, since they are university professors, they have a perspective and legitimate points regarding this bill that you haven't thought of, since you are not a university professor. Perhaps you should read and attempt to honestly undestand that perspective before you arrogantly dismiss it.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Indeed, the best, most persuasive and compelling arguments I have ever heard in favor of Creationism have come from writers like Dawkins and Gould as they played "devil's advocate". It is this ability to argue from any angle, to examine ALL evidence, is what makes science so powerful.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Then I can't see where you have any business coming down one way or the other regarding this bill if you aren't interested in learning what the university professors think about it.
quote: Well, you would be wrong. I read the entire text of the bill for myself.
quote: Well, What about the complaints raised right here?
quote: Um, my link that you don't feel like reading lists some very informed objections. Also, we keep asking you to provide evidence of your claims of widespread, pervasive intimidation of conservative students, but you have yet to do so. A list of a few incidents, some of which are questionable, does not suffice, sorry.
quote: Attempts to legislate academic thought tends to get academics rather antsy, it's true. Please read the link I posted, and then come back and explain specifically how the American Associateon of University Professors' concerns are completely unfounded.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I'd just like to say that this message of yours, faith, is a prime example of what the Academic "Bill of Rights" is all about; people like you who simply cannot tolerate contrary opinion.
quote: Nanny nanny boo boo! Poo poo head!
quote: So, some ideas should be banned from the classroom? You are suggesting that there are some ideas that should be off limits for discussion?
quote: So...someone who thinks differently from you is evil. Got it.
quote: Are you planning to acutally address the question any time soon?
quote: I'd love to see you at an academic conference, frothing at the mouth and ranting as you are escorted out of the building. LOL! You are certainly great entertainment, Faith, that's for sure. I have no respect for your views, but you are entertaining. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-11-2005 09:32 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, between those two, I choose morality. I am frankly disturbed that you, a Christian, would think there is any choice at all in the matter, Phat. However, this is a false dichotomy.
quote: Yeah. Peace on earth, good will towards all people. That would suck.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Is this true? Can you please show this to be the case?
quote: Please show your statistics that women outnumber men in faculty positions in all other professions besides the hard sciences. Math faculty are mostly women? Engineering faculty are mostly women? Political Science?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Then maybe you should say "students" rather than "faculties".
quote: Right, just like women who do the same work as men should get paid the same. ...except thay don't, do they?
quote: Did they, though? If they had been trying to get into law and med school in the 1950's, do you think it would have been just as easy? Why or why not? Do you think that the attitudes towards women in higher education have become completely egalitarian in a single generation? I don't.
quote: Tell that to all of the Title 9 athletes.
quote: I agree. But women have been shown to be discriminated against in many areas of academia, at almost all levels. Read a LOT of info about this and related issues, including affermative action here
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Uh, we are talking about women in academia, are we not? Women cannot "form a university" any more than men can.
link Bold added by me. Please pay particular attention to the italicized bolds where it says that women are leaving academia to persue other careers, not because of family issues.
But we still have far to go. Unlike men, women in science and math face a series of barriers in their careers. Women drop out of the sciences at almost every significant transition: after high school, after their freshman year in college, between undergraduate and graduate school and between graduate school and work. Too many women in the pipeline leave before they have the chance to prove their worth. Women who continue on the path face the ubiquitous glass ceiling, as a 2001 report from the National Council for Research on Women, Balancing the Equation, demonstrates. In academia, discrimination and traditional academic practices inhibit women's progress to the top. While the number of women science professors continues to rise, relatively few reach leadership positions. Despite the fact that women have been earning more than one-quarter of the Ph.D.s in science for the last 30 years, fewer than 10 percent of today's full professors in the sciences are women, according to the National Academy of Sciences. In addition, the wage gap persists; figures from the National Science Foundation show that in 2001, women working in computer and mathematical science fields earned $72,500, compared to $85,000 for men. In the sciences, a seven-year study published in the American Economic Review found that women in the United States are twice as likely as men to leave occupations related to science and engineering to pursue careers in other fields. The study is consistent with the experiences of prominent women scientists who met at Mills College in 1994 to discuss the advancement of women in science. Their report challenged all sectors of societyindustry, business, educational institutions, legislatures and government agenciesto develop strategies and practices that help, rather than hinder, girls and women from pursuing their scientific interests. Did you even read any of the studies on the page I linked to?
quote: Was there equal opportunity in women's sports at the university level before Title 9?
quote: Do you mean as students or as faculty? (and anyway, you're wrong. There are still slightly more male enrolees in medical school than women as of 2003) There are not more female medical and law school FACULTY. That's the point, Steve. Women might be starting out in those fields as undergrads, but they are often pushed out the higher they try to climb.
quote: Dude, how do you figure it's not relevent? The people who had these sexist, discriminatory attitudes (whiich persisted in blatant form well into the 1870's) are still in power now!
quote: There are NOT more women than men in positions of leadership and power in academia. Women are greatly outnumbered in most fields, with the presence of women getting smaller and smaller the higher the degree or position. Let's look at medical schools in the US:
Sorry, that page was not found. | AAMC The proportion of all women faculty at the full professor rank is 11%; 30% of men are full professors. On average there are 26 women full professors per medical school, including non-tenured and basic sciences faculty, compared to 171 men at that rank. As of 10/1/03, 10 of the 126 U.S. medical school deans are women. Nationally 30% of faculty are women. The percent of tenured women faculty is 17%. The percent of tenured men faculty is 31%. At those schools supplying data for division chiefs, an average of 16% of chiefs were women in 2002. Women department chairs number about 251, that is about 10% of all department chairs (an increase from 10% last year). Eighteen schools have no women chairs. quote: The thing is, can men show that arts, education, and nursing programs have consistently discriminated against men, or have men always been welcome? Where are the masses of men reporting discriminatory practices? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-11-2005 07:12 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Your rant had nothing to do with any of the facts I provided or the points I raised or the questions I asked.
So, try again.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Did female collegiate athletes have equal access before or after Title 9?
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