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Author Topic:   WIll God save us if we don't believe in the Resurrection?
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 3 of 139 (216433)
06-12-2005 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
06-12-2005 12:24 PM


I believe that the Bible makes it pretty clear that if you do not believe in the Resurrection, then it doesn’t matter how nice a person you are, you are going to Hell.
That seems pretty wrong on any level. There are a great many very beautiful people in this world who do not believe in the resurrection, or Jesus for that matter.
Can we be saved from just being nice to each other? Personally, I don’t think so because according to God’s Word we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23 ). And the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:23).
What about very good and influential people who pride themselves in their culture and understanding. The Dalai Lama, for example.
Before we knew the global communication infrastructure that we're accustomed to now, there was no way of knowing about the Jesus resurrection supposedly going on in one part of the world at the time. Does that mean all those people went to hell?
There are still areas of Africa where people are born and die without much or any contact with cultures apart from their own. Are they going to hell?
Who holds the responsibility then? Do you have to get to these people before they die and they automatically go to hell or is it their job to somehow "wake up" and realize there was a Jesus who rose from the dead, even though they have absolutely no idea how to even pronounce "Jesus" or that there is a Rome, or a United States, or advanced water filtration systems.
edit for typo
This message has been edited by dsv, Sunday, June 12, 2005 01:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 06-12-2005 12:24 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 06-12-2005 4:00 PM dsv has replied
 Message 118 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 7:34 AM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 9 of 139 (216466)
06-12-2005 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
06-12-2005 4:00 PM


This is lunacy! Where are the cameras? Am I being Punk'd?
Think of all the Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish spiritual leaders throughout history.
This kind of gross intolerance and pure hate makes me sick and I respectfully disengage from this discussion. I appologize. Good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 06-12-2005 4:00 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 33 of 139 (217081)
06-15-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
06-14-2005 10:15 AM


Re: Yet more great questions.
I don't believe that GOD had much to do with writing the Bible. Not the OT and certainly not the NT. The Bible is an anthology of anthologies. It was written by men, perhaps insired men, but still limited by the knowledge, understanding, culture, biases and limitations of their day.
You being a Christian (from what I have read), does that mean you believe the accounts concerning Jesus, including the supposed observations of His miracles, are accurate in the Bible?
That's interesting with your above statement. I'd like to learn more, if possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 06-14-2005 10:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 46 of 139 (217587)
06-17-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Brian
06-17-2005 7:28 AM


Re: Jesus death
What greater sacrifice could God have made than to sacrifice His only Son?
He's in Heaven now with God so one could argue that it wasn't really a sacrifice in God's point of view. You could consider possibly that the sacrifice was sending Him to earth in the first place.
As long as Hitler didn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit, then there is no reason why he cannot be saved.
He was a Christian and killed Jews in the name of God so I suppose we can expect to hang out with him in Heaven someday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Brian, posted 06-17-2005 7:28 AM Brian has replied

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dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 61 of 139 (217701)
06-17-2005 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Brian
06-17-2005 3:44 PM


Re: Jesus death
Well Hitler is just the easiest example.
My original point was that if people believe they are doing the work of God, it seems like it doesn't matter if the acts are evil or not to the rest of the world. It's their reality.
If we say that killing in the name of the lord, "cleansing" non-beleiver societies, and similar act throughout history are evil, we are doing so based on civilization as we know it. During the time some of these historical events took place, these societies truly believed they were fighting for God, doing his work, etc. I don't know if that can be questioned.
So now, based on our civilization's standards, we are saying that all of these warriors of God are now in hell?

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 Message 57 by Brian, posted 06-17-2005 3:44 PM Brian has not replied

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 Message 63 by jar, posted 06-17-2005 5:09 PM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 64 of 139 (217758)
06-17-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
06-17-2005 5:09 PM


Re: Jesus death
I understand where you're coming from but I guess I just see it as more complex. For example, is Pope JP going too for his pressure on African birth control issues? A lot of examples and different religious leaders come to mind. It just seems like there are a lot of religiously fueled movements that in my view cause harm to people. Obviously the people of that opinion believe in their hearts that they are right because they believe they're following their God and a noble cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 06-17-2005 5:09 PM jar has replied

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 Message 95 by Brian, posted 06-22-2005 8:03 AM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 98 of 139 (218642)
06-22-2005 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Brian
06-22-2005 8:03 AM


Re: Jesus death
Brian writes:
What I mean is, why should we consider it evil for God to demand the genocide of particular groups? Can we really impose human characteristics on a being thatis not human?
Yes, we should. We're human and as such have to apply our standards to life. We can say "you can't possibly comprehend Him" all day, but that gives any being free reign. The same was said about the various kings/gods/emporers throughout history. Of course, we now know they were mere mortals but the perception was still the same. So yes, if you believe God demands the genocide of particular groups, I would call that an evil God.
Brian writes:
We would like God to be all loving and caring, but there is nothing that says He has to be.
Except for the many Christians that tell me this on a regular basis. Such as in the "defining God" thread, where apparently he is "love" and "truth" and "goodness" etc.
I suggest we go back to those threads and add "mean spirited" "vindictive" "hateful" "racist" etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Brian, posted 06-22-2005 8:03 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 119 of 139 (226974)
07-28-2005 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by riVeRraT
07-28-2005 7:34 AM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Those are some quaint little stories and I'm sure they make for great sermons and discussions in your church. However, they don't change the fact that religion can be mapped to geographic boundaries, especially before the internationalization we see today. Those cultures grew without input from other regions.
This kind of cultural evolution bound by geographic limitations of the era is clear evidence that Jesus is not "in our hearts." You must be exposed and possibly "sold" on Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 7:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 2:46 PM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 122 of 139 (227139)
07-28-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by riVeRraT
07-28-2005 2:46 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Thats your opinion.
Yes, my personal opinion on it is based on the knowledge I have gathered thus far in life.
The truth is that you have no authority to speak for all the cultures of the world, and how they came to be.
What authority? It is what it is. Native Americans, for example, developed a culture apart from the organized Christianity going on across the pond and had no access to it until the cultures collided, where is the conundrum?
Are you suggesting that they sort of knew that Jesus had died for them on the cross?
What about religion prior to the mostly monotheism we see today? Shouldn't the ancient empires have felt in their hearts that God was speaking to them?
Nor do you know what is on peoples hearts. That leaves us with the fact that anything is possible.
Blood. It's true we don't know what people are thinking but if they're telling us "We believe in all of the following Gods..." or "We believe the Universe was created like this..." should we not believe them? Should we just assume, for some insane reason, that they're lying and really they had the Christian God in their hearts the whole time?
Even as little as 2000 years ago a small group of apostles went around a very large area, and spread the gospel.
So you admit that Christianity isn't felt, it's sold. Therefore, a culture that evolved in a geographically separated situation would have no understanding of Christianity until someone from that culture met.
My point is, that we do not actually know who knows, and who doesn't.
We know who doesn't. There aren't very many cultures on Earth now that have not at least heard of Christianity, just as we are here discussing it. Those that don't believe in it still after knowing of it, I think you could safely say have chosen not to follow the religion.
As far as people who call themselves Christians but don't actually believe, who knows.
That is the problem I have with this whole thread, we are judging whether or not people are going to heaven. Yea the bible says you have to believe, but it also says do not judge. So what do we do?
We are simply trying to determine if
A) One can spontaneously (seemingly) realize Christianity without outside influence from cultures other than their own.
and if so
B) If a culture who hasn't had contact with other cultures, such as a tribe in Africa, does not convert to Christianity, are they going to Hell or in line to receive some kind of punishment.
Just love God, and love others, let God sort it out.
Agreed, start getting on the phone with congress and tell them as a Christian you want them to stop trying to legislate morality based on religion and to just let God sort it out.
This message has been edited by dsv, Thursday, July 28, 2005 03:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 2:46 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 10:47 PM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 124 of 139 (227303)
07-29-2005 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by riVeRraT
07-28-2005 10:47 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Exactly. But go back further. Christianity starts with Judism. Who knows exactly how the Native Indians came to America. It is possible they left the east and sought out new land to get away from religious beliefs. We just don't know what was on their minds and hearts.
We're talking about 30,000 years ago. That's a little too old for Judaism's 4,000 year history.
So that when you learn the real truth, you will know in your heart if it is true or not.
This hypothesis is apparently incorrect since there's plenty of scholars who study the bible extensively and remain atheist. Perhaps even directly because they study the bible extensively.
I find nothing wrong about that idea. Man makes up stuff all the time to convienence himself, and his selfish ways.
Agreed. However, I don't understand your position then. Are you an atheist/agnostic or a Christian?
No, it is so that when you hear the truth you will know it from your heart and mind.
Does this mean I have not heard the truth yet? What have you heard that I and others have not?
What about all those (the majority of American atheists/agnostics) that have left organized religion? Wouldn't we assume that they have heard the "truth" from their ministries? If even they can't, what hope is there that anyone can really hear the "truth?"
Even still, who am I to judge if they go to heaven or not?
I agree. Who are you to judge what is wrong or right, gay or straight, an abomination or not, moral or immoral, etc. Judgement is a huge part of organized Christianity. That's what's all about, who is right and who is wrong.
Maybe God is going to punish those who know Jesus, and do not show others, then let the others go to heaven, and say it is not thier fault they didn't know Jesus, but your or mine, because we didn't act the part and let our actions speak louder than televangilist.
I consider myself a follower of Jesus, and that I am doing things his way to the best of my ability, but to the jury os still out on who gets to go to heaven. It's not for me to decide, or anyone else in this forum, that's how I feel.
Yikes. For the sake of all the good kind-hearted people out there -- who, according to your bible, sin on a regular basis -- I hope that your god is not God. He sounds like a pretty cruel entity.
Do you know who Jesus is? Have you ever felt the power of the Holy Spirit? How can you judge millions of peoples hearts like that. You have no way of knowing what they have been through, or how the sum of thier experiences have made them who they are.
I know who "Jesus" is the same way we all do, literature. No, can't say I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit, I'm awaitin' though.
I didn't judge anyone. I simply said that historical evidence shows us that the societies of the time, who were not monotheistic, had no idea who or what Jesus or your God is.
I'm not judging them in any way. See, I don't care if they believe in your God or not, I don't see it as a bad thing, so I'm not saying it in a derogatory way at all.
Of course I fall short, but thats ok, so I am told. I mean I feel ok, I feel like I will go to heaven. I might not sit on the highest thrown, but hey, I'll be glad to be there.
That is f-ing scary. Who would want to live like that? I do not understand it.
If there is a heaven, I hope you get in, honestly. I hope everyone does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by riVeRraT, posted 07-28-2005 10:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 07-29-2005 12:21 PM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 126 of 139 (227461)
07-29-2005 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by riVeRraT
07-29-2005 12:21 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Since this is the Faith and Belief forum, I'll go along with a lot of this stuff for the sake of discussion, even though most of it has no basis in reality. Unfortunately most of your post is just opinion so there's not much room for response other than my opinion.
If we were really following him, there would be no wars, and no problems, no starving children, or suffering widows, no mass murders, etc.
Why don't we all follow Allah or cows or chickens? If the human race was collectively 100% fearful of any doctrine, there would be less conflict, simply because there wouldn't be much to fight about.
If everyone on the planet was atheist and woke up one morning and said to themselves "hey, we're all human, screw all this sinner and hell nonsense, I'm going to do my part to better the human race" then that would have the same outcome.
We don't need Christianity to save us.
But would you agree on this truth, that we all seek the truth?
No. Some people are blissfully ignorant and choose to take the easiest route. I don't know many people that have explored many other religions and science before choosing Christianity, do you?
Most people are just brought up in one religion and stick with it or they find something that suits them socially and go with that for reasons apart from truth or enlightenment.
Please don't turn this into the gay thread...
It always comes down to this, freakin sad.
The "gay or straight" was just one line item, sorry. It's just one of the easiest ways to show how ludicrous and hypocritical the religion is, so it seems to come up often on these forums.
I think the mistake is that gay people want to get mad at God, because humans decide not to accept gays. Well I think they are short changing themselves. Gays put down straight marriage all the time, saying how bad it is, and look at the divorce rate, blah blah. Of course its bad, look at the world today. To me its much harder for a guy and a girl to get along, than 2 guys. Should I be mad at gays, because they mock straight marriages?
I think you're missing the point. They're not putting down straight marriage. They're pointing out the hypocrisy of divorced Christians telling them they're not suitable for marriage or raising children. Happily married Christian families with white picket fences in rural areas produce gay children too, that's what they're saying.
I digress, this is off-topic.
Cool, I pray right now that God blesses you with it also.
I didn't feel anything. Try again, this time harder and longer.
I agree with you. I am saying that I do not understand the purpose of all other religions and cultures, but I know that nothing happens except by the will of the father.
Well why would you? I mean, Christianity is the only one that's right -- you have confirmed it, you've felt the Holy Spirit -- why would we need all those other freakin religions? They're just fodder.
Whats so scary about it?
Hell is scary. A God that damns people to Hell for living on a planet he created like a kid with an ant farm is scary. Snakes that talk are scary. Witches, rivers of blood, directed lightning, humans burning, etc. etc. is all very scary.
Tell me you have never done anything in your life that you feel bad about?
Of course I have. That has nothing to do with God though. I feel bad about it because of MY personal morality, not because I'm scared of what God will think.
If you were running heaven, how would you have it run?
I would accept everyone and wouldn't tell them about it until they're dead. Or I would just kill everyone, including all the unborn future souls, and bring everyone to heaven since it's pointless to keep people in some biosphere nonsense if there's no longer a test to put them through.
Do you think its unreasonable for God to expect us to love him, and love others?
Yes, we are human. God is some incomprehensible force of will. Why would such a being expect us to understand him and/or love something we have absolutely no real knowledge of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 07-29-2005 12:21 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 12:32 AM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 128 of 139 (227737)
07-30-2005 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by riVeRraT
07-30-2005 12:32 AM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Does it seem like this is going nowhere to anyone else? I continue anyway.
We don't need Christianity to save us.
Exactly, we need love.
Then why don't you convert to Buddhism, since it doesn't matter which religion it is, as long as there's love and we all have an equal understanding? Why does everyone else have to make a change and you get to stay with Christianity?
I think Buddhism is a much better global religion for the purpose of having no war, accepting others, and having a pleasant life.
I'll convert if you do. Let's take a stand.
Well, I said I pray right now for you, but I knew in my heart you weren't going to feel anything. Even if you did, you might not even admit it, or dismiss it so quickly and deny it ever happened.
How could I expect you to feel anything, it took me years to feel what I felt. That doesn't stop me for praying for you. Maybe a seed has been planted within you from this moment on, that you are unaware of. and one day you will experience it.
In any other context, this would be called borderline schizophrenic behavior.
I guess thats what makes me different from most Christians. I will not judge those people, or their religions. But I will try to share with them whaty I know. But the choice is thiers. It doesn't affect me either way what they choose to believe. I only hope that we can get along in the mean time. If the way I choose is the truth, and I do a good job of conveying it to people, then the truth will do its own thing.
Nonsense. I'm tired of the "I don't judge people" crap. Yes, you judge people. What do you think it is you're following? Have you read the Bible? Can you turn more than 5 pages without something being judged?
If God thinks something is an abomination, I'm fairly certain that you think it is as well, otherwise you wouldn't be a true believer. How is that not judging? If you label it "sinning" that is a judgement, sir.
This country needs a big revival to bring people back to the way of the truth, and love, and get rid of all this judging and tradition, its for the birds.
The ONLY way to get rid of "all this judging and tradition" in this country is if this Christian movement decided to stop pushing their personal religious morality on Americans.
Your right, it sure is scary. But I can see it now, and believe it exists.
That must suck.
Your personal morality, could possibly = God's law on your heart, or the part that you choose to accept.
No.
I never really understood how an atheist justifys feeling bad about doing anything, why they believe in good and evil, but not God. It just doesn't add up. I mean why give a crap, if we are just going to die, and thats it. Who cares if your name lives on in a book, or you kill 30 people in cold blood. What difference does it make, your dead, and thats it.
Who is the real evil person then? The atheist that doesn't need some supernatural being to tell him not to kill people, doesn't need to go to a meeting every Sunday and remind himself not to be a complete asshole?
From your statement above I think you should, not walk, RUN, to church and reaffirm your morality, because you may very well be on the edge ready to go on a killing spree.
If you don't mind, can you tell me what you do for a living. I want to relate a thought to you in a way you can understand. I will not use your occupation as a weapon against you.
I am the Chief Technology Officer and Executive Board Member of a NASDAQ corporation in the neuroscience field.
(referring to mormons)I think its crazy, but that verse raises some questions.
Yes, it's definitely crazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 12:32 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 9:03 PM dsv has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 130 of 139 (228107)
07-31-2005 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by riVeRraT
07-30-2005 9:03 PM


Re: Who knows about Jesus?
Well because buddhism did not show me God's true love for us.
But it did show Buddhists something. It showed them Buddha's teaching for how to love and respect the world.
But yours is a typical response from someone who doesn't understand it.
I understand it. I was once a raving lunatic kid who went to church, prayed, said grace at dinner, believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny, etc.
It was only after I started really studying that I started moving away from it. Not as a goal, mind you, just as an unexpected additional result of studying science and the universe. Once that happens, then you start studying the bible. It's odd actually, I have studied the bible more as an agnostic than I did as a Christian. In more detail anyway.
But anyway, I was a Catholic (I'm Italian) so it came down to the fact that even at a young age I decided that I didn't like the hate and extreme prejudice going around. I didn't feel like hating everyone.
The Pope's crimes against humanity didn't help either.
Yes, I stated that I do judge people, but I do not condemn people. Hey a sin is a sin according to the bible. You want me to change the bible for you?
Not at all. I understand the position, I don't fault you for it or anything. I just don't understand why someone would be a part of it.
And what? go by an atheist/agnostic moral value system? What makes one better than the other? Christianity was here first, and all of our morals come from a long history of Gods, and rules, and religions.
Not an atheist/agnostic moral value system, a human one. A default one. One that includes us all. One that puts life on this planet first.
You haven't answered the question, just making stabs at Christians, or people who call themselves Christians, doesn't qualify you as someone who knows how to have an intelligent conversation. Try not insulting, and come up with an explanation to my question.
What? Look at your "question" here:
quote:
I never really understood how an atheist justifys feeling bad about doing anything, why they believe in good and evil, but not God. It just doesn't add up. I mean why give a crap, if we are just going to die, and thats it. Who cares if your name lives on in a book, or you kill 30 people in cold blood. What difference does it make, your dead, and thats it.
  —riVeRraT
You stated that if we were without God, everyone would just be killing eachother since "why give a crap?". You're telling me that I'm incapable of intelligent conversation now? I was point out the lunacy of that. Monks aren't killing themselves and murdering -- but I guess they have "God's law" in their hearts they've just yet to find Jesus.
Come on man...
Do you think you are to smart to believe in God?
Not at all. In fact, I'm perfectly open to some kind of God somewhere or some higher power or existence pre-singularity. I'm not open to Christianity and the bible, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by riVeRraT, posted 07-30-2005 9:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by riVeRraT, posted 07-31-2005 7:21 PM dsv has not replied
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