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Author Topic:   Disabling Bacterial Resistance
nator
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 60 (216627)
06-13-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
06-13-2005 12:01 PM


So, what experiment could be designed to show ID in such a situation with bacterial resistance?

What predictions would you make BEFORE the expeiment which could only be possible if an IDer was responsible?

IOW, design an experiment which eliminates the possibility that naturalistic mechanisms are responsible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 06-13-2005 12:01 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 06-13-2005 12:28 PM nator has replied
 Message 8 by randman, posted 06-13-2005 12:35 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 60 (216639)
06-13-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
06-13-2005 12:35 PM


quote:
1. Naturalistic mechanisms can be ID.

How do you know when they are not ID?

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-13-2005 12:59 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by randman, posted 06-13-2005 12:35 PM randman has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 10 of 60 (216641)
06-13-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
06-13-2005 12:28 PM


quote:
I thought a good experiment is putting a species in a niche it's not used to. If the species dies off before it has a chance to evolve, then obviously morphological change takes too long to happen, but ex nihilo creation seems plausible.

Your experiment has been done many times both in the field and in the lab, and morphological change in species has been observed.

What do you conclude from this? That ID is falsified?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 06-13-2005 12:28 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 06-13-2005 1:09 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 60 (216691)
06-13-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
06-13-2005 1:09 PM


Re: Mikey's catch 22
quote:
Can you provide the link showing morphological change in species like the chimp or tiger or any species out of it's niche?

How about an iguana which has developed webbed feet and dives under the ocean to eat algae?

Or a squirrel that glides?

Or a bird that swims instead of flies, like a penguin?

Here's a more general listing of the evidence for morphological change. FYI, each of those names and dates in parenthese are peer-reviewed scientific papers that you can look up and read for yourself if you care to do the work:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.htmllink

Prediction 5.2: Morphological change

Cladistic classification, and thus, phylogenetic reconstruction, is largely based on the various distinguishing morphological characteristics of species. Macroevolution requires that organisms' morphologies have changed throughout evolutionary history; thus, we should observe morphological change and variation in modern populations.

Confirmation:

There have been numerous observations of morphological change in populations of organisms (Endler 1986). Examples are the change in color of some organ, such as the yellow body or brown eyes of Drosophila, coat color in mice (Barsh 1996), scale color in fish (Houde 1988), and plumage pattern in birds (Morton 1990). Almost every imaginable heritable variation in size, length, width, or number of some physical aspect of animals has been recorded (Johnston and Selander 1973; Futuyma 1998, p. 247-262). This last fact is extremely important for common descent, since the major morphological differences between many species (e.g. species of amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and birds) are simple alterations in size of certain aspects of their respective parahomologous structures.


>

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-13-2005 06:16 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 06-13-2005 1:09 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 06-14-2005 8:48 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 30 of 60 (216958)
06-14-2005 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
06-14-2005 8:48 AM


Goodbye, mike
quote:
Shraff, the Iguana, how do you know it wasn't just an undiscovered species? Your link didn't work.

It might have been, but so what?

What you asked for was a species which was found outside of it's usual environmental niche and some morphological adaptations reflective of that niche.

Other species of iguanas do not have webbed feet and do not dive to eat algae in the ocean.

quote:
As for the bird and other one, that's just animals being clever like God made them.

So, the poorly-designed crossover air and food tubes in our throats is evidence of God making a lousy choice?

[quote]A variation within a kind is possible don't forget.[/quoote]

What is your precise definition of "kind"?

What criterion do I use to determine one "kind" from another?

Are all primates a single "kind", including humans?

What is the barrier to many small variations adding up over time to produce big changes?

quote:
But big change into another kind of animal, like a cat to a fish, is highly unlikely.

What is your precise definition of "kind"?

What criterion do I use to determine one "kind" from another?

quote:
Or an ape into a man.

"Man" is an ape.

quote:
There isn't time. Please address catch 22.

What is your evidence that there isn't time?

quote:
Evolution is obsolete IMO. If you do survive, evolution hasn't had time to happen, if you don't, it still doesn't happen.

What is your evidence that there isn't time?

quote:
If you do or you don't, either way, evolution isn't fast enough to be useful,

Really?

Then why do we have to get a different flu shot every year?

Mutation seems to work pretty well for viruses.

quote:
only small change under natural selection, just like AIG states.

Mike, this is my last post to you.

I have lost all respect for you, I am sad to say. You are not worth my time anymore, because I have answered all of these questions for you at least a dozen times. You clearly DO NOT WANT to understand anything.

You are smarter, much smarter than this, but you have chosen willful ignorance over enlightenment.

I am really very sad.

Goodbye, and have a nice life wrapped up in your ignorance.

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-14-2005 09:10 PM


"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."--Thomas Jefferson

There is no greater threat to civil liberties than an efficient government. -jar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 06-14-2005 8:48 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 06-14-2005 9:19 PM nator has not replied

  
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