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Convince-me
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 8 (21243)
11-01-2002 6:36 AM


I will get attacks from both sides.

I´m a creationist. DNA does not arise by itself.

Until recently I thought that the earth might be about 6000-7000 years old. I believed subfamily to family-specific created kinds were made so many years ago. Evolutionists reminded me that we are most related to chimps and further from the gorilla. If chimps and gorillas came from a single ancestor, they ought to be more similar to each other than chimps to humans. And our proteins could be more similar with the dogs or the elephants proteins than chimps and gorillas. And cattle (Bos taurus) existed for sure about 5000 years ago. So when did Bos primegenius split from cattle and when did Bos split from Bison. So I went to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov to CHECK SOME THINGS OUT!!

But with every protein I checked our similarity with genus Pan was bigger than with Gorillas. Pan differed as much with the gorilla. And even more with the orangutang and gibbons. Even more with monkeys. I also checked other animals such as cow and ermine. Here is the results about the protein cytochrome b.

Bos Taurus Equus grevyi
Bos indicus 4,56%
Bos javanicus 9,30%
Bison bison 8,33%
Bubalus bubalis 12,81%
Boselaphus tragocamelus 12,63%
Tragelaphus oryx 13,33%
Ovis aries 16,49%
Capra hircus 14,56%
Alces alces 15,44%
Giraff 14,74%
Tragulus napu 19,47%
Camelus dromedarius 21,49%
Sus scrofa 20,00%
Hippopotamus amphibius 21,40%
Equus caballus 20,18% 8,51%
Ursus americanus 22,28%
Elephas maximus 25,24%
Pavo cristatus 27,37%

and
Mustela erminea Pan paniscus
Mustela nivalis 7,54%
Mustela lutreola 8,07%
Martes americana 12,19%
Lutra lutra 12,89%
Gulo gulo 13,42%
Monachus schauinslandi 16,67%
Meles meles 16,75%
Felis catus 17,11%
Procyon lotor 17,28%
Herpestes auropunctatus 17,39%
Mephitis mephitis 18,42%
Ursus americanus 19,30%
Bos taurus 19,56%
Vulpes vulpes 19,65%
Odobenus rosmarus 20,53%
Tursiops truncatus 20,96%
Sorex tenellus 22,19%
Macropus rufus 23,42%
Phodopus campbelli 23,86%
Pan troglodytes 24,74% 5,18%
Pavo cristatus 27,19%
Caiman crocodilus 32,02%

Man and chimp: 10,88% (cytochrome b)
Man and gorilla: 12,46% (cytochrome b)

Animals within an order posses more similarities with each other than animals outside an order but in the same class. And there is even more difference from another class.

This is the theory of mine. The created kinds are order or suborder-specific, created 100.000 to 200.000 years ago. (Genesis 1:20-25) All mammals with the same cytochrome-b-structure. All birds with the same cytochrome-b-structure, but different from mammals. During that time mutations occured and randomly changed the sequences, in different rates, whether it´s an exon or an intron. Pongo first branched from the other apes and later Gorillas branched from Pan.

Complicated protein systems between different families is no problem for God to fix. But I just don´t think bird and mammals have the same ancestor. Their embryological pathways are far too different from each other. God just wouldn´t change that.

15.000 years ago. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED!!
Satan was in this world and it was evil. An angry goat-sheep chased a fox-wolf away from her lamp. When the goat-sheep ran after it thrue the forest it struck a branch off from a pine-fir. The remaings of the branch was very sharp point.
Later that day when it was dark some chimps came to that place. A playful chimpanzee-kid hit the sharp edge with its arm. It bled enourmously. He screamed and he ran to his mother to be comforted.
Formica-Polyergus-ants went up to the branch and some large workers carried the piece of flesh that had been left on the branch down to the ground. On an open place 20 meters away from the tree they carried the flesh below the ground. (Genesis 1:26)

Man was made and several years later a global flood came. Even later Bison split from Bos. Many years even later man domesticated some Bos primegenius and wolves. The difference between wolves and dogs or (Bos taurus) and (Bos indicus) are even smaller than man and chimps. And if mutation changes are faster with a shorter generation lapse then it becomes even more time from the copy of a chimps cell to the domestication of wolves. So man must be far older than 6000 years. But man is not one million years old. World population growth doesn´t show that.


Replies to this message:
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Convince-me
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 8 (21244)
11-01-2002 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Convince-me
11-01-2002 6:36 AM


Stupid tables. (Equus grevyi) is only compared with (Equus caballus) and (Pan paniscus) is only compared with (Pan troglodytes). Otherwise the differences refer to Bos taurus and Mustela erminea.
This message is a reply to:
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monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 8 (21249)
11-01-2002 8:43 AM


quote:
If chimps and gorillas came from a single ancestor, they ought to be more similar to each other than chimps to humans.

I always thought pan troglodytes and homo sapiens branched off from gorillas, taxonomy browser at ncbi has them all branching off the same node, so maybe the phylogeny is still uncertai


Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Itzpapalotl, posted 11-01-2002 9:18 AM monkenstick has not yet responded

  
monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 8 (21250)
11-01-2002 8:48 AM


btw, your proposed hypothesis is pretty sketchy, if you want something a bit more concrete I'd suggest you use clustalx to do a multiple alignment of the entire mitocondrial genomes of these species (concatenated) and then use the phylip program to draw some trees

(a single mitochondrial gene isn't really all that informative)


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-01-2002 9:18 AM monkenstick has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Convince-me, posted 11-06-2002 8:03 AM monkenstick has not yet responded

  
Itzpapalotl
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 8 (21252)
11-01-2002 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by monkenstick
11-01-2002 8:43 AM


Although the 'trichotonomy problem' has been the subject of much debate, both a review of soft tissue anatomy (1) and recent genetic evidence (2,3) have shown that chimpanzees are almost certainly the closest relatives of humans. It is though that gorillas splt only a short time before the homo pan divergence which made the phylogeny difficult to resolve.

(1) Sally Gibbs, Mark Collard, and Bernard Wood. Soft-tissue characters in higher primate phylogenetics. 11130–11132 PNAS September 26, 2000 vol. 97 no. 20

(2) R. Wimmer, S. Kirsch, G. A. Rappold, and W. Schempp. Direct evidence for the Homo-Pan clade. Chromosome.Res. 10 (1):55-61, 2002.

(3) S. L. Page and M. Goodman. Catarrhine Phylogeny: Noncoding DNA Evidence for a Diphyletic Origin of the Mangabeys and for a Human–Chimpanzee Clade. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution Vol. 18, No. 1, January, pp. 14–25, 2001.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by monkenstick, posted 11-01-2002 8:43 AM monkenstick has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 8 (21253)
11-01-2002 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by monkenstick
11-01-2002 8:48 AM


Interesting. I was wondering if he'd include the whales into Artiodactyla, therefore creating a hypothetical Hippopotamus-Balaenoptera (hippo-blue whale)...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by monkenstick, posted 11-01-2002 8:48 AM monkenstick has not yet responded

  
Convince-me
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 8 (21678)
11-06-2002 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by monkenstick
11-01-2002 8:48 AM


Where do I go to use this clustalx and use the phylip program?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by monkenstick, posted 11-01-2002 8:48 AM monkenstick has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 48 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 8 of 8 (21697)
11-06-2002 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Itzpapalotl
11-01-2002 9:18 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Itzpapalotl:
(3) S. L. Page and M. Goodman. Catarrhine Phylogeny: Noncoding DNA Evidence for a Diphyletic Origin of the Mangabeys and for a Human–Chimpanzee Clade. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution Vol. 18, No. 1, January, pp. 14–25, 2001.

Ahem....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Itzpapalotl, posted 11-01-2002 9:18 AM Itzpapalotl has not yet responded

    
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