Solving the Mystery of the Biblical Flood

Dear Edge;

quote:

---

How did the sand dunes of the Entrada Fm. get from their source to the far reaches of the Colorado Plateau? According to you this should be impossible. I dare say that you are being selective about the facts that you will entertain.

---

If you are referring to the Entrada dunes in the Great Sand Dunes National Monument National Park, the following quote from the brochure for the park is quite informative under the section titled 'geology.'

quote:

---

Geology: The dunes were formed from sand deposited by the Rio Grande river and its tributaries, which flow through the San Luis Valley. For thousands of years, prevailing westerly winds have come over the Rockies and down over the river flood plain, picking up sand particles on the way. These are then deposited at the east edge of the valley before the wind rises to cross the Sangre de Cristo mountains.

---

Great Sand Dunes National Park and Preserve, ColoradoNow I haven't been to this park nor have I read extensively on it's geology, but it sounds like the dunes there are a case of water transported sand that has been locally reworked by wind. It also sounds like the reason the dunes are found where they are is due to the wind being unable to carry the sand over the Sangre de Cristo mountains. Are these the dunes you wished to refer to? If so they hurt your position rather than help, it would appear you have only succeeded in placing your foot firmly in your mouth.As for saltation being a transport mechanism for large marine diatoms found in Wisconsin. Diatoms are made of glass and are in the form of hollow glass boxes made up of two over lapping halves that fit together. So you are saying that you believe these fine structures were transported by saltation which involves hitting the ground and being bounced and rolled along until picked up by the wind for a short hop and then hitting the ground again for well over thousand miles? As I pointed out in my last post, this type of wear and tear would be very evident and is not present in the samples I have examined.

quote:

---

Well, regardless, you need to find some way of explaining marine diatoms hundreds of miles from the sea in Antarctica. I don't really care how it is done, but it is a fact that it happens. You cannot avoid the facts.

---

No, one certainly can't avoid the facts and as I have been pointing out to you diatoms come in a wide range of sizes and the smaller sizes are easily transported by wind while the larger sizes are not. I web site we referred to earlier in this thread on marine diatoms found in Antarctica stated " These diatomaceous sediment microclasts range in size from 25 to 40 microns, however, and do not preclude eolian transport." http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/1997/nsf97160/ch9.htm#fig1 The reason of course wind transport is not precluded is that they are small enough for the wind to pick up and carry. Even in Antarctica, the phyiscal laws governing wind transportation still apply, things above 57 microns are too large for long distance transportation by wind lofting. The larger sizes of marine diatoms and forams I have found here in the Midwest are much larger and would not be carried far by the wind.

quote:

---

I don't really care how it is done, but it is a fact that it happens.

---

Now if I had made a statement like this you would have jumped all over me. Sounds like you are the one who is blindly believeing in things. I think I just heard the sound of your other foot entering your mouth.

Dear Edge;You have been pretty cryptic about this but OK, so let me see if I have got this straight now, you are referring to the Entrada Formation which is a 166 million year old Jurassic sandstone formation in eastern Utah and western Colorado? You are really reaching deep into the past, couldn't you find a more recent example? And why are you bothering with the Entrada Formation when the there are far larger sandstone formations such as the Morrison Formation?I gather, based on the line of argument you have been pursuing, that you are stating that the location and extent of this sandstone deposit is evidence of wind lofting of very large sand grains far larger than what we see today? That would be a unique view point. Due to it's great age, the area of the Entrada formation has changed greatly and elevations have shifted and topographical features and been added and removed. Normal accepted means of transporting sand and sediment are adequate to explain the size and extent of the deposit. Perhaps you should explain your argument in more detail, from what I have found so far, the evidence fails to support your line of thought. One web site stated. " Entrada Sandstone Formation: Formed in both a marine and terrestrial environment. The earthy facies were formed in a marine environment, whereas the sandy facies were formed on land in wind blown sand dunes." For this deposit to have started as a marine deposit, it had to of course be underwater which indicates a very subdued topography, even after it was uplifted this area was probably still pretty flat and covered by sand which was reworked by the wind. Additional sediment was also carried in by the rivers which had previously run into the sea. As another site noted. "Here in northeast Utah, the Entrada Formation was deposited in river channels, with many of its thick sandstone layers created by flood deposits. Following deposition, the Entrada Formation was buried, tilted and uplifted by tectonic activity." It sounds like most of the sand was carried to the area by water, not wind and was locally reworked by wind to create the dunes. I fail to see why you believe large scale transport of large sand particles by wind lofting was required, it is certainly not a mainstream view, remember I am suppose to be the one here that is off the wall.On a side note on the Entrada sandstone formation, they ran the movie "Galaxyquest" on TV Thursday night and there as big as life in the scene with the rock monster was the deposit we have been arguing about. Apparently part of the movie was shot in Goblin Valley State Park in Utah, and since the rock monster was animated to match the background rocks, you could say he was made up of Entrada sandstone. So I got a double laugh watching the movie and thinking how you in effect are attacking me with the same monster.You stated that you disagreed with the 57 micron limit on wind lofting, why and for what reasons and what evidence do you base this on? From what I have been able to find, 40 microns is a more reasonable limit based on the maximum size found in wind lofted deposits. I have seen nothing to support a much larger lofting limit size.Density of diatoms and forams? Well they sink in water, which is why I used the reference to water droplet sizes, so figure a density a bit heavier than water.