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Author Topic:   Hitler, Evolution, and Christianity
Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 91 of 146 (217462)
06-16-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by robinrohan
06-15-2005 10:13 PM


Ever seen those wonderful documentaries about the famous archaeologist Indiana Jones?

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 Message 90 by robinrohan, posted 06-15-2005 10:13 PM robinrohan has replied

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 146 (217529)
06-17-2005 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Cthulhu
06-16-2005 6:45 PM


There were also some shows on the History Channel, I believe.
The ones where they say, "Is it possible . . ."

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 146 (217531)
06-17-2005 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
06-17-2005 1:02 AM


Anyway, I am studying the speeches that Jar suggested, and I will make a report on them whenever I read them all.
Mighty tedious, they are.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 146 (217687)
06-17-2005 2:29 PM


Analysis of one of Hitler's speeches
On Jan 27, 1932, Hitler delivered what I believe is one of his best known speeches to industry leaders in Dusseldorf. It was a much more reasoned, less emotional speech than was typical, and another remarkable quality of it is that he did not mention the Jews even once. Perhaps there were Jews present. Nonetheless the speech is very racist.
Here's my summary of his ideas:
Individuals are not equal in ability. Some individuals have greater ability than others. There are 2 political philosophies in the world that deny this plain fact: "Internationalism" and democracy. By internationalism, he means any sort of movement that tries to link people beyond national borders--in other words, Marxism--and by democracy he means the system of voting.
Just as individuals are not equal in ability, neither are races.
Democracy, he says, is a "levelling idea of the supremacy of mere numbers" (voting) and internationalism is "the negation of the value of a people, the denial of any difference in the inborn capacity, the achievement, etc., of individual peoples." The levelling down feature of democracy and internationalism leads inevitably to pacifism:
"The conception of pacifism is logical if I once admit a general equality amongst peoples and human beings. For in that case what sense is there in conflict? The conception of pacifism translated into practice and applied to all spheres must gradually lead to the destruction of the competitive instinct, to the destruction of the ambition for outstanding achievement."
In a strange sort of way, I find this profound: the cause of all war is the concept of inequality ("I'm better than you.")
Hitler goes on to say that private property is justifiable only insofar as we recognize the value of "personality"--the inequality among individuals. If everyone is the same, then everyone should have the same property. But if we accept individual differences on an economic level, as we do with capitalism, than we should also accept it on a political level. Democracy is a levelling-down on a political level just as Marxism is a levelling down on an economic level.
However, there is one organization in any country that is immune to the levelling-down influence: an army. An army is an "alien body," he says, in a Democratic or Marxist state. Here we have a very clear definition of fascism.
The agenda of this speech, I think, was to convince industry leaders that National Socialism was not "hostile to our business life."
He sums up his speech by saying that the only political conception that makes sense historically is that of "supremacy":
We have the so-called white race which, since the collapse of ancient civilization, in the course of some thousand years has created for itself a privileged position in the world. But I am quite unable to understand this privileged position, this economic supremacy, of the white race over the rest of the world if I do not bring it into close connection with a political conception of supremacy which has been peculiar to the white race for many centuries and has been regarded as in the nature of things . . . "
Conclusions:
The central idea is that conflict between individuals and between peoples is natural because of inequality. Life consists of struggle and ought to consist of struggle: this is natural and healthy. What is not natural and what is unhealthy are human schemes that try to camouflage inequality. An army is a natural organization.
Is there an element of social Darwinism here? Yes, I think so.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-17-2005 01:32 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-17-2005 03:27 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-17-2005 03:49 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-17-2005 03:50 PM

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 146 (217713)
06-17-2005 4:40 PM


Other questions to consider as regards this topic
A. What ideas did the Nazis use mostly to convince the masses?
1. Christian ideas
2. nationalist (non-racial) ideas
3. Social Darwinian ideas, which involved the idea of the superior race.
B. This is an adjunct question, but one of interest: Was Hitler a Christian? In order to discuss this, we need to agree on what a Christian is.
I suggest that to be a Christian, you have to believe that (a)Jesus was in some sense divine and (b)that he died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected.
But since I am not a Christian, i might be mistaken about the definition. So let me know.

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 146 (217885)
06-18-2005 1:24 PM


Hitler's use of Christianity
Hitler's speech on April 12, 1922 is a diatribe against the economic power of the Jews (most of his speeches in the 20s, as far as I can tell, are antisemitic diatribes).
This speech begins with a discussion of the reparations the Germans had to pay after WWI and how these reparations have caused Germany to become "a colony of the outside world."
Hitler refers to "Christian capitalism" which he says is being destroyed by the "International Jewish Stock Exchange." The Jews are getting richer and richer and the Germans are in poverty.
Then he says that what the other Right wing groups in Germany have forgotton is that "Democracy is fundamentally not German: It is Jewish." In other words, the Weimar Republic was established by Jews and international Jewish finance is draining it financially.
Then he goes through a list of some doctrines of National Socialism.
He says that the proper idea of "work" (doing something beneficial for one's people) sprang from the blood of the Aryan race, whereas the Jewish idea of work is that of a parasite.
And then we come, toward the end of the speech, to the Christian reference. He refers to one Count Lerchenfeld, who said that "his feeling 'as a man and a Christian' prevented him from being an anti-Semite."
Hitler's response:
"I say: my feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to the fight against them and who, God's Truth!, was greatest not as sufferer but fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousasnd years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before--the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. As a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago--a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.
Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us?"
What is he saying here?
He seems to be saying (1)that the reason Jesus died on the Cross was to save the world from Jewish finance; (2) that Jesus' fighting spirit was greater (more important)than his suffering on the Cross; (3)that the Roman empire was destroyed by the Jews; and (4)that the Germans came from the North to help the crumbling Roman empire.
A strange historical analysis and an even stranger Christian idea.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-18-2005 12:27 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 137 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 2:12 PM robinrohan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 146 (217889)
06-18-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by robinrohan
06-18-2005 1:24 PM


Re: Hitler's use of Christianity
You need to remember that the opinions he's expressing were not that radical. They were in fact, fairly commonly held beliefs.
For another view, take some time to look over Henry Ford's writings about Jews. You can find some of them in an abridged version here.
AbE:
You can find the full version here.
This message has been edited by jar, 06-18-2005 01:10 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 96 by robinrohan, posted 06-18-2005 1:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by robinrohan, posted 06-18-2005 3:22 PM jar has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 146 (217910)
06-18-2005 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
06-18-2005 1:43 PM


Re: Hitler's use of Christianity
I don't see a specific connection with the Christian ideas in the speech I discussed--i.e., the references to Jesus.
If you want to bring in Henry Ford to show that the crypto-Christian ideas in Hitler's speech were common, then you need to do more than say to me, "look at Ford passim."
Jesus died on the cross to save us from Jewish finance?
I thought he died on the cross to save us, Jew and Gentile, from our sins.
Looking at it from Hitler's world-view, Christ failed in his mission.
My point is that the practice of quote-mining to find Christian references in Hitler's speeches needs some context, to show just how peculiar these "Christian" ideas were.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-18-2005 02:28 PM

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 Message 97 by jar, posted 06-18-2005 1:43 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 146 (217920)
06-18-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by robinrohan
06-18-2005 3:22 PM


Re: Hitler's use of Christianity
Well, if you'll invest the time to read what Henry Ford wrote I think you'll see some striking resemblances between Hitler and Ford. Hitler believed he had a Christian duty to save the world from Jew Finances. Ford would have agreed but took it even further. Ford saw the Jew as the biggest threat that ever existed towards civilization.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 98 by robinrohan, posted 06-18-2005 3:22 PM robinrohan has replied

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 146 (217923)
06-18-2005 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
06-18-2005 4:19 PM


Re: Hitler's use of Christianity
Well, if you'll invest the time to read what Henry Ford wrote I think you'll see some striking resemblances between Hitler and Ford.
No, this will not do.
I refuse to be insulted in this fashion.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 146 (218013)
06-19-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
06-04-2005 7:14 PM


Re: "God and Country"--Nazi style
Notice again what I said: In Mein Kampf, Hitler went on and on about racism, but nobody read Mein Kampf - not even the inner circle of the Party. On the other hand, in his speeches to the public, Hitler appealed to Christianity and to traditional concepts like Volk.
From the speeches I have read so far, I would say they are all racist to the extreme, and not just anti-Semitic. They are also anti-"Negro." It's racism in the obvious sense of that word.
Take, for example, his speech of January 18, 1927. He says that the nation is sick. Why is it sick? Is it because there is something wrong with the German people? By no means. The reason Germany is sick is that it has been infiltrated by a wrong idea, International Marxism (controlled by Jews) which tries to convince us that race doesn't matter. This idea has fragmented Germany.
You know, it is really unbelievable that it was possible to preach this insanity of internationalism to millions of people and people believed in this idea; incredible that the Jew who has been in our midst for thousands of years and yet remained a Jew, has managed to persuade millions of us that race is completely unimportant, and yet for him race is all-important. What would that really mean, - that race does not matter? That would mean that if today I were to remove the Germans from here and take them to Central Africa and brought the Negro here, things would look the same as if the Germans were here. The Negro would create just as cultured a state. Do not imagine that the jazz band would have created [the] culture which we have today! If we look around, everything we see here has been produced by the collaboration of intellectual and physical labor for centuries. Where do these inventors come from? Do you believe that the human race has a single invention which was created by a Negro? Not one. Even the most primitive jobs which he has performed, he took over from the white race. If you train him long enough, he can play a Wagner opera on the piano. But that demonstrates the skill of the trainer rather than the ability of the Negro. It is only now that they are beginning to civilize the Negro. And that applies to every aspect of the question. Certainly a Negro can dust a light bulb today but he cannot invent one.
He goes on to define what "nation" means:"the collective term for all people who speak our language and possess our blood . . . We see that race is of supreme importance to the life of our nation as well as character . . ."
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-19-2005 09:37 AM

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 146 (218016)
06-19-2005 11:26 AM


Hitler's "Christianity"
For someone who was a Christian, we certainly find some odd comments in "Table Talk." For example:
187 gth April 1942, at dinner: The God of the Christians protects the Japanese pagans Japanese religion and the cult of hero-worshipThe unhealthy character of ChristianitySuperstition Brutality of the Catholic ChurchThe maintenance of morale without the aid of the Church.
"It is very curious that devout Christians like the British and the Americans should, despite their constant and fervent prayers, receive such a series of hidings from the pagan Japanese ! It rather looks as if the real God takes no notice of the prayers offered day and night by the British and the Americans, but reserves His mercies for the heroes of Japan. It is not surprising that this should be so, for the religion of the Japanese is above all a cult of heroism, and its heroes are those who do not hesitate to sacrifice their lives for the glory and safety of their country. The Christians, on the other hand, prefer to honour the Saints, that is to say, a man who succeeds in standing on one leg for years at a time, or one who prefers to lie on a bed of thorns rather than to respond to the smiles of inviting maidens. There is something very unhealthy about Christianity."
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-19-2005 10:32 AM

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 146 (218018)
06-19-2005 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by robinrohan
06-19-2005 11:26 AM


Re: Hitler's "Christianity"
Here's some more of Hitler's "Christian" views:
N A T I O N AL SOCIALISM OPPOSED TO WORSHI P 6l. "Nobody has the right to deprive simple people of their childish certainties until they've acquired others that are more reasonable. Indeed, it's most important that the higher belief should be well established in them before the lower belief has been removed. We must finally achieve this. But it would serve no purpose to replace an old belief by a new one that would merely fill the place left vacant by its predecessor. It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund. At that period the ancient world was divided between the systems of philosophy and the worship of idols. It's not desirable that the whole of humanity should be stultifiedand the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.
A movement like ours mustn't let itself be drawn into meta- physical digressions. It must stick to the spirit of exact science. It's not the Party's function to be a counterfeit for religion. If, in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it's always striving, according to the momentary state of know- ledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It's Christianity that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 146 (218085)
06-19-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by robinrohan
06-19-2005 11:46 AM


Re: Hitler's "Christianity"
For those of you who think that Hitler was a Christian, I suggest you take a look at "Table Talk." I think you have been duped by Hitler's demagoguery.
Here are a few tidbits:
When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the
disease.
Originally war was nothing but a struggle for pasture-grounds. To-day war is nothing but a struggle for the riches of nature. By virtue of an inherent law, these riches belong to him who conquers them. The great migrations set out from the East. With us begins the ebb, from West to East. That's in accordance with the laws of nature. By means of the struggle, the lites are continually renewed.
The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human
failure.
If a revolution breaks out again in Spain, one must see in it the natural reaction to an interminable series of atrocities. One cannot succeed in conceiving how much cruelty, ignominy and falsehood the intrusion of Christianity has spelt for this world of ours.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 105 of 146 (218108)
06-19-2005 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by robinrohan
06-19-2005 4:36 PM


Re: Hitler's "Christianity"
robinrohan writes:
For those of you who think that Hitler was a Christian, I suggest you take a look at "Table Talk." I think you have been duped by Hitler's demagoguery.
Who said Hitler was a Christian? My position is that Hitler abused Christianity just as he abused science. He certainly didn't act like a Christian, but he didn't act like he knew anything about science either.
Based on the information that we had earlier in the thread, it seemed to me that Hitler used Christianity to sway the masses. If the speeches that you have quoted are representative, that may not be true.
What concerns me is that you seem to de-emphasize Christianity and over-emphasize science as Hitler's tool. I don't think the common people at that time had the knowledge or interest in science for it to have been an effective tool.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

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