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Author Topic:   Lucy and Secular Humanism
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8868
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 61 of 64 (218345)
06-21-2005 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by randman
06-21-2005 2:56 AM


Fuged skulls
The only source here is answersingenesis. With this degree is difference I would expect there to be some mainstream publications on it. Do you have another source?

This message has been edited by NosyNed, 06-21-2005 08:31 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2248 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 62 of 64 (218353)
06-21-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by randman
06-21-2005 2:29 AM


Re: Fudged Drawings?
With all due respect. The website you listed:

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Taxonomy.html

also has this quote:

The idea that embryonic development repeats that of one's ancestors is called recapitulation. It is often expressed as "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny"; that is, embryonic development (ontogeny) repeats phylogeny (the genealogy of the species).

This is a distortion of the truth. It implies, for example, that early in our embryonic development we go through a fishlike stage. We do not. Rather, we pass through some (not all) of the embryonic stages that our ancestors passed through. Therefore, we find that the more distantly related two vertebrates are, the shorter the period during which they pass through similar embryonic stages (fish and human) and vice versa (fish and salamander).

Therefore they are explicitly not endorsing any kind of Haekel type ideas. Therefore this is not an example of evolutionist misrepresentation.

The fact is that we do go through very similar stages of embryonic development to our nearest relatives. We should expect that if evolution is true, more distantly related species go through more different embryonic development and more closely related species go through more similar embryonic development. This is exactly what we see.


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This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 63 of 64 (218356)
06-21-2005 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by randman
06-21-2005 2:46 AM


Re: Fudged Drawings?
Haeckel faked his drawings.

Haeckel did not "fake" his drawings. They're not particularly accurate and he did emphasise those features he wanted to draw attention to, and reduce other features he wanted to draw attention away from. And, what's more, he freely admits in the introduction to the second edition that he has done so. Haeckel argues that this is true of any and all diagrams and he has a point - you don't include oily stains on a diagram of an engine, for example.

Drawing inaccurately is different from faked, and different from fraud.

Personally, I think it's a shame they are still used so often, photos will demonstrate the point just as well and without any dificulties of 'ariststs interpretation' (which, in fact, is what the textbook I studied from at school did).

Added by edit: by way of analogy, this is a map of the underground, allowing you to compare the "real" map to the schematic one shown everywhere. The standard map bears strikingly little resemblance to the actual positions of things yet it is neither faked nor fraudulent.

This message has been edited by Mr Jack, 06-21-2005 10:54 AM


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3910
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 64 of 64 (218393)
06-21-2005 11:34 AM


Off topic - closing for at least a while
I bumped the Why are Haeckel's drawings being taught in school? to try to move the debate there - Didn't work.

Going to close this topic.

Adminnemooseus

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 06-21-2005 11:34 AM


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