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Author Topic:   Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Legend
Member (Idle past 4239 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 256 of 264 (216097)
06-11-2005 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by wmscott
06-10-2005 9:53 PM


Re: The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists
wmscott writes:

The Bible has plenty of historical backing, while we don't have evidence for all events recorded in the Bible, it is a real history taking place in real places.

Not quite. The Bible has a valid historical context, in that most of the places and some of the people are historically authenticated, but to call it "real history" is a sweeping statement. The Bible is full of historical improbability, for example, the synoptics' account of the Passion events is very unlikely to have happened in that way, based on what we know about Jewish laws and customs of the time. And I won't even start on how one-off accounts of zombies walking the streets of Jerusalem, fig trees dying in a day, etc. contradict any attempt to class it as 'real history'.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by wmscott, posted 06-10-2005 9:53 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 5481 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 257 of 264 (216124)
06-11-2005 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by arachnophilia
06-10-2005 11:42 PM


Re: The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists
Dear Arachnophilia;

while the bible seems to record a particular group of people's particular views and traditions regarding things that seem to have actually happened (assyrian and babylonian exile for instance), the book of mormon does not seem to be recording any variants of anything that actually happened.

Yes, that was my point, while the Bible is historical, the Book of Mormon is not.

i wasn't equating them, really. it's just that when people claim there's a lot of historical evidence for the events in the bible (there's really not) and that we should accept the bible as a true, holy book because of it, but not the book of mormon because it has NO evidence, it sort of annoys me.

Yes, that was also my point, it "annoys" you, and that is what biased your judgement.

Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by arachnophilia, posted 06-10-2005 11:42 PM arachnophilia has replied

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wmscott
Member (Idle past 5481 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 258 of 264 (216129)
06-11-2005 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Legend
06-11-2005 5:37 AM


Re: The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists
Dear Legend;
The Bible is full of historical improbability, for example, the synoptics' account of the Passion events is very unlikely to have happened in that way, based on what we know about Jewish laws and customs of the time. And I won't even start on how one-off accounts of zombies walking the streets of Jerusalem, fig trees dying in a day, etc. contradict any attempt to class it as 'real history'

The Bible is not merely a record of human history, the very point of it is that it is a record of God's dealing with humankind, a record of the power of God. Miracles are miracles, they are not explainable in terms of mere human history, otherwise they wouldn't be miracles.

As for the zombies, there are merely the result of misinterpreting the following verse.
(Matthew 27:52-53) "And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people."

The dead bodies in the memorial tombs were raised up or tossed out by the earthquake that occurred when Jesus died. That is why it states that their bodies were raised and not the holy ones themselves. Then what happened is that people saw these exposed bodies and went into the city and told everyone and many people went and saw them. If you go back just one verse to 51 it states; (Matthew 27:51-52) "the earth quaked, and the rock-masses were split. And the memorial tombs were opened. . ." The tombs were opened by the earthquake.

See, all you have to do is look and you can find answers in the Bible, while the Book of Mormon is merely fiction that falls apart under examination.

Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson


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nator
Member (Idle past 1403 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 259 of 264 (216177)
06-11-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Rosie Cotton
06-11-2005 2:50 AM


quote:
We didn't make the rule. God did.

Just like God made the law about polygamy, and just like God made the law that black men couldn't attain the priesthood, and just like God ordered that the temple ceremony language edited to eliminate a lot of racist and bigoted language?

Those laws were changed at just about the same time such things were frowned upon by the greater culture, weren't they?

So, I'm thinking that "God's laws" are under more influence by the Mormon leadership and the greater current culture than you realize.

quote:
There are certain things that you must obtain before you may enter the sealing rooms, among these is the endowment, something that only baptised individuals may receive. I'm sure the daughter worked it out with her parents. I know my dad did, as he was a convert and my paternal grandparents did not attend my parents' wedding.

But you are avoiding the point.

The Mormon Church excludes non-Mormon blood relatives, including parents, from witnessing one of the most important days in the life of their child, yet still has the audacity to promote it's religion as pro-family.

Those things are mutually exclusive.

It really seems to me that the only kind of "family" the Mormon Church deems important are Mormon families when they exclude non-Mormon parents from such important events.

Hypocritical.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Rosie Cotton, posted 06-11-2005 2:50 AM Rosie Cotton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Rosie Cotton, posted 06-14-2005 10:50 AM nator has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 577 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 260 of 264 (216224)
06-11-2005 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by wmscott
06-11-2005 10:16 AM


Re: The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists
Yes, that was also my point, it "annoys" you, and that is what biased your judgement.

well, it'ls like saying the iliad is a historical document because we have archaeological evidence for it.

we don't. he have archaeological evidence for the trojan war. but none of the rest of it is verifiable. in fact, the evidence even slightly contradicts the story: the iliad has the war taking place over 10 years. in reality, it was more like 100.

same deal with the bible. it's technically correct to say that archaeology verifies the bible. but it does lend some credibility to it. where as it does not to the bom.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Rosie Cotton
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 264 (216787)
06-14-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by nator
06-11-2005 1:55 PM


It just so happens that if we didn't change those rules, we would be breaking another rule: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and majestrates in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law." :p

Polygamy was also because there wasn't a need for it anymore, so it became a sin again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by nator, posted 06-11-2005 1:55 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by nator, posted 06-21-2005 1:06 PM Rosie Cotton has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1403 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 262 of 264 (218425)
06-21-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Rosie Cotton
06-14-2005 10:50 AM


quote:
It just so happens that if we didn't change those rules, we would be breaking another rule: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and majestrates in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law."

But it's perfectly legal for churches to discriminate against anyone they want to. Churches and other private institutions like the Masons are not required to follow anti-discrimination law.

So why did the Mormons change the rules against black men attaining the priesthood in the 1970's if they weren't required to by law?

Besides, you are AGAIN avoiding my point.

The Mormon church is hypocritical when they promote themselves as a pro-family religion because what they really mean is that they are pro-mormon family.

quote:
Polygamy was also because there wasn't a need for it anymore, so it became a sin again.

So, it was mere coincidence that it became a sin again just about the time it was declared against the law by the government?

Are you really that naive?

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-21-2005 01:08 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Rosie Cotton, posted 06-14-2005 10:50 AM Rosie Cotton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Rosie Cotton, posted 06-21-2005 9:51 PM nator has replied

  
Rosie Cotton
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 264 (218532)
06-21-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by nator
06-21-2005 1:06 PM


If it is naivety, yes. However, I think that it isn't.

I can't answer questions that only God knows the answers to schrafinator. So, I'm not evading the question, I simply cannot answer it, and neither can anyone else on earth.

It became a sin because

1) Disobeying the government is a sin...so yes.

2) Mormon mobs were beginning to die down, which is the soul of Mormon polygamy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by nator, posted 06-21-2005 1:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by nator, posted 06-22-2005 12:01 AM Rosie Cotton has taken no action

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1403 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 264 of 264 (218555)
06-22-2005 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Rosie Cotton
06-21-2005 9:51 PM


quote:
It became a sin because

1) Disobeying the government is a sin...so yes.


Rosie.

Excluding black men from the preisthood is NOT against the law in the US.

The Mormon church is a private institution and can therefore discriminate against anyone it wants to.

You know, like the Catholic Church can exclude women and gays from the priesthood if they want to, and the Masons can be an all-male club if they want to, and the Girl Scouts of America don't have to admit boys??

So it makes no sense for you to say that the Mormon leadership decided to allow black men to attain the priesthood in the 1970's to submit to any law because there was no legal requirement for them to do so.

So, what other reason could the Mormon church have for changing this sacred, God-given rule other than the greater culture had just come through a major struggle for civil rights and it became a PR problem for the Church to contine this discriminatory practice?

It was the greater culture that made them change, Rosie.

don't you think it was?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Rosie Cotton, posted 06-21-2005 9:51 PM Rosie Cotton has taken no action

  
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