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Author Topic:   Intelligent (maybe), but far from perfect
Thor
Member (Idle past 5931 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 48 of 91 (218594)
06-22-2005 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by randman
06-22-2005 3:11 AM


To think this pattern contains no mind or intelligence behind it is unreasonable.
That's a rather bold statement. Why is it unreasonable?
I do not believe there is any mind or intelligence behind any of it, nor do I see any particular reason why there should be.
Does that make me an unreasonable person?

On the 7th day, God was arrested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by randman, posted 06-22-2005 3:11 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 06-22-2005 3:52 AM Thor has replied

  
Thor
Member (Idle past 5931 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 50 of 91 (218608)
06-22-2005 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by randman
06-22-2005 3:52 AM


Re: maybe misguided
Misguided, I like that one. It does explain a lot. So, where would be the correct place to be 'guided'?
Information and design comes from where?
What is information? That is, what do you define as information? Design, now that is a human trait. It is an ability of the human brain to produce a means of achieving a certain task. So where is the task that life (or the universe itself if you want to go that far) was designed for? It's a pretty big piece of work to not have a clear purpose for its design.
But it still goes back to where did the design come from?
No, I don't reckon it does. You're saying that it has to come from somewhere, and I simply don't buy that. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that matter and energy have always existed, it didn't come from anywhere. As for design, well, attention to the most basic concepts of chemistry make much more sense to me. Particles within atoms, atoms and molecules actually react with each other, and they manage to do this without human intervention. Now, I think you'd have to agree that the universe is rather large. There is all kinds of combinations of particles and energy (which as I said, may have always been there) and all kinds of conditions in which they exist. Considering the size of the universe, I find it quite outrageous to think that atoms could NOT interract and form a complex, self replicating structure which continued to interract with it's surroundings and grow into life as we know it, if the conditions were right for it. This outer spiral arm of this unremarkable galaxy out of billions is one place where the conditions happened to be right.
Is it reasonable to think something can come from nothing?
Is it reasonable to think that we have been created and designed by some omnipotent intelligence that we've never seen? And by your general argument, if this designer had that kind of intelligence then it cannot have come out of nothing either. Something must have designed/created it too. Then, the designer of the designer can't have come from nothing, and so on...
I do not now, nor ever have, claimed that something came from nothing, which is quite different to saying that an intelligent designer is behind it all. Even if there were, then this designer would have to have come into existence at some point (something from nothing?), or alternately have always existed. Is there a reason why that can be true for a designer but not for matter and energy?
Remember, design is purely a human idea. Nature doesn't necessarily care about what we think.
By the way, calling me misguided because I don't suscribe to your unsubtantiated view comes across to me as the height of arrogance. In view of which, if I were you I'd be more careful before using the term 'unreasonable'.

On the 7th day, God was arrested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 06-22-2005 3:52 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by randman, posted 06-22-2005 3:31 PM Thor has not replied

  
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