WIll God save us if we don't believe in the Resurrection?

As a monotheist, what I mean is that it is easier to believe that Gods imagination is literally limitless than it is to assume that my own human imagination is equally as limitless. I am not saying that humans are not creative. We are indeed creative, yet we are not infinitely so.

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-14-2005 06:29 AM

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The blood of Jesus was shed to cleanse the sins of those who accept it.

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Define what that means to you or in Chrisianity in general. What are we to accept? That Jesus is the son of God, that Jesus died for sins, or that Jesus came back to life?

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If you die unclean God will not let you ascend into heaven and you are therefor condemned to hell.

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Please define unclean as you are using it.In the OT it is defined as: unclean, impure ethically and religiously
ritually
of placesIn the NT it is defined as: not cleansed, unclean
in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from according to the levitical law
in a moral sense: unclean in thought and lifeThe NT seems to use it in conjunction with the word spirit more than by itself. IMO this deals with the moral sense.So in today's world what depicts unclean?
What process makes one clean?
And in today's world what depicts clean?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-14-2005 06:29 AM

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-14-2005 06:29 AM

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-14-2005 06:30 AM

heh, don't worry about it. my one darned summer (art!) class has gotten so stressful i've been unable to reply for sometimesa whole week. as far as i know. they do tend to agree that people die because of adam's transgression, but i think that's only because of the removal from the tree of life.

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אָרַח

Yes, we should. We're human and as such have to apply our standards to life. We can say "you can't possibly comprehend Him" all day, but that gives any being free reign. The same was said about the various kings/gods/emporers throughout history. Of course, we now know they were mere mortals but the perception was still the same. So yes, if you believe God demands the genocide of particular groups, I would call that an evil God. Except for the many Christians that tell me this on a regular basis. Such as in the "defining God" thread, where apparently he is "love" and "truth" and "goodness" etc.I suggest we go back to those threads and add "mean spirited" "vindictive" "hateful" "racist" etc.

Just a typo. Flying fingers of fate, and all that.Let's return to something that seems to be central to your response. The issue of the crucifixion.Was crucifixion necessary to the story of Jesus life and death?Had Jesus been stoned to death would the message of his life and death been any different?Let's get this settled and then we can try to deal with the sacrifice issue.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-14-2005 06:30 AM

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-14-2005 06:30 AM

In Franklin Merrell-Wolff's account of his awakening PATHWAYS THROUGH TO SPACE he comes on this very point. In the brief time I have with my coffee and internet mail this morning I couldn't find the passage, but he was writing of a particular time when he was caught up in what he calls the recognition of nirvana and looking at his earthly life he found nothing that was meaningful or pleasurable compared to the intensity of the consciousness he was experiencing. He felt like he could abandon his body and then he thought of all the millions still suffering on earth. He felt that was the only thing that made it worthwhile to remain alive rather than enter fully into the bliss and that was to help those who remained struggling in suffering. This is the vow of the Bodhisattva, to refrain from the bliss (might be thought of as heaven) and remain behind to help those still caught in samsara.Franklin had some interesting insights in what Jesus's experience might have been though again these are not according to Christian doctrine and most Christians wouldn't find them useful.Franklin was a mathamatician and his account of his awakening to recognition is one of the most accessible books on the experience of non duality.lfen

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-14-2005 06:31 AM

Brian,I wasn't questioning Jesus, I was question God's sacrifice. If Abraham had killed his son he would have lost his son for the rest of his life or so he believed. Christians speak of God sacrifice and it does seem modeled on the Sacrifice of Abraham, but God knew he would have his son back in three days. So I'm wondering how is that a sacrifice?If I give up something for three days I might speak metaphorically of sacrificing my weekend to work, or sacrificing my time with my friends in order to help some cause, but that is because I have limited time and it's not a huge sacrifice. Christians seem to be impressed that God sacrifice his son. It's supposed to be a huge deal but in what way is it really a sacrifice at all? God has all eternity so what is a loss of three days for him? He knew his son would return in triumph over the dead so why should I feel guilty and in awe that God did this?It's like if I would try to make my children guilty because I sacrificed being with my friends for three days, knowing that in three days I would be with them all I wanted? How impressed are they supposed to be by that "sacrifice"? It all seems bizarre irrationality to me. You have to ignore so much that is obvious, like HELLO! It's NOT a real sacrifice if you get it all back three days later! It's a temporary inconvenience or at worst an ordeal. Are we saying we should feel bad that God had to endure suffering that though bad is not as bad as it gets. Ordinary humans have endured worse for far longer periods of time. Has their suffering redeemed God? Is he at all grateful to us for our suffering? And if not, why not?lfen

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If He had been stoned to death, He would have had many broken bones, so He wouldnt have been the Messiah, thus His message would have been worthless, IMO.

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Wouldn't the beating him on the head described in Matthew and Mark; and the flogging in John also make him blemished and unfit as a sacrifical lamb?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France