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Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 211 of 378 (218909)
06-23-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by randman
06-23-2005 2:10 AM


Re: The Evidence For Jesus
Because, frankly, a lot of the very religious sites are very biased.
Things I have found out about that.
1) It was in an entirely jewish section.. no evidence of Christianity.
2) The translations that point to Jesus are controversional.
It would be more accurate to say : it is the OPINION of a faithful Christian that it "has been dated in the first half of the first century A.D. (cir. A.D. 42/43),"
According to my reference (C.K. Barret, The New Testament Background, SPCK 1987), this tomb is dated 50BCE - 50CE, which is quite different. The meanings of the words "Iesous iou" and "Iesous aloth" is disputed.
Father Sukenik is a Christian believer - other scholars read these ossuaries as simply names - Jesus being a very common name in those times.

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Jabez1000
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 378 (219038)
06-23-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by randman
06-22-2005 6:55 PM


Re: The Evidence For Jesus
You're welcome Randman. One of my favorite apologists is Sam Shamoun and he has a lot of information at http://answering-islam.org.uk/Shamoun/documents.htm
randman - It's interesting because it appears on this thread we have folks that argue that Josephus is accurate despite a number of glaring mistakes, admitted by all scholars, and then discount John which exhibits such a tremendous level of cooroborating evidence.
Jabez - good point. On that webpage Shamoun quotes scholar F.F. Bruce who wrote "The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical author, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning. And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt. (F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? 5th rev. ed. [Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press, 1988], p. 15)"
ramoss - Because, frankly, a lot of the very religious sites are very biased.
Jabez - I have found the same to be true about many Atheists and Evolutionists. Thanks for posting what C.K. Barret had to say about that although I wonder why he says Iesous Aloth rather than Yeshu' Aloth.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-24-2005 11:22 AM Jabez1000 has replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 213 of 378 (219312)
06-24-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Jabez1000
06-23-2005 2:46 PM


Re: The Evidence For Jesus
Jabez, can I make a suggestion that will make your posts more readable?
If you click on the peek button at the bottom right of this post, you will see how I am using the quote functions
quote:
We have a couple of styles of quotes available
The Queen writes:
including a more personalized quote feature
When you are replying to someone, to the left of the text box you are typing in are a couple of helpful links,
HTML On (help)
dBCodes On (help)
and our Smilies Legend.
In my signature box are other helpful links to know about.
By the way, Welcome to EvC.
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 06-24-2005 10:22 AM

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Jabez1000, posted 06-23-2005 2:46 PM Jabez1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jabez1000
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 378 (219324)
06-24-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by AdminAsgara
06-24-2005 11:22 AM


Re: The Evidence For Jesus
We have a couple of styles of quotes available
Thanks for the welcome and the tips.

This message is a reply to:
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d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 378 (219557)
06-25-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Brad
05-27-2005 6:32 PM


Re: Did jesus exist?
That's no debate at all...just "DENIAL".
There should be no denial of Jesus' historic existance just as there should be none for George Washington, King James, Ghenghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great...Jesus, Moses, Noah, ...etc.
ANYONE WHO CHOOSES TO DO SO DO IS LIVING IN A "FANTASY WORLD" OF AN "IMAGINARY REALITY". Kind of like the evolutionists.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-25-2005 2:36 PM d_yankee has replied
 Message 217 by Chiroptera, posted 06-25-2005 2:37 PM d_yankee has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 216 of 378 (219558)
06-25-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by d_yankee
06-25-2005 2:32 PM


Forum Guidelines reminder
d,
This thread is in our evidence based group of fora. We do not accept arguments without facts to back them up. We also do not accept name calling. Please review the Forum Guidelines and show us you are capable of following these rules. Failure to do so can result in suspension of posting privileges.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 378 (219559)
06-25-2005 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by d_yankee
06-25-2005 2:32 PM


Re: Did jesus exist?
Why should there be no denial of Jesus' existence? There really isn't any evidence that he existed, other than the Gospels, which were written after the Jesus cult had obtained a following.
And Moses and Noah are definitely fictitious characters.

This message is a reply to:
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d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 378 (219565)
06-25-2005 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
05-28-2005 12:28 AM


Then you are winning his argument for him...because what you are doing in "SELECTIVE" ACCEPTANCE. You are "CHOOSING" to believe a Paul, or Peter wrote their letters but not Mark, Matthew..etc.
Your thinking is not rational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-28-2005 12:28 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 06-25-2005 2:55 PM d_yankee has not replied
 Message 221 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2005 3:03 PM d_yankee has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 219 of 378 (219566)
06-25-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by d_yankee
06-25-2005 2:53 PM


I'm sorry but does your post have anything to do with my message, the one you're replying to?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 378 (219567)
06-25-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Admin
05-28-2005 7:42 AM


Re: Forum Guidelines Advisory
sounds to me as if you are doing a Nero on these guys, by "BANNING" posts that may have their faith in it...so does everyone else's posts. One can not avoid speaking one's "BELIEF" when stating issues that are "DEBATEABLE". Simply because you don't believe as some of these do should not make you ban their posts. What they are saying may be true.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 221 of 378 (219568)
06-25-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by d_yankee
06-25-2005 2:53 PM


d yankee
Your thinking is not rational
Pray tell,good yankee.would you be so kind as to show us your rationality by sticking around and defending your position rather than hit and run with naught save opinions which are as numerous as the assholes in the world.Everybody's got one.
The trick is to to have an opinion you can back with some well reasoned arguement or evidence that can stand up to abrasion by criticism. My money is that you will not and remain merely an as...er ,opinion.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by d_yankee, posted 06-25-2005 2:53 PM d_yankee has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 222 of 378 (219569)
06-25-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by d_yankee
06-25-2005 2:59 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines Advisory
no you misunderstand - the board is broadly divided into two sections - half "faith" and the other "science".
This one is in the science section - so you need to provide evidence.

This message is a reply to:
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Jabez1000
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 378 (219573)
06-25-2005 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
05-27-2005 5:17 PM


The Greatest Conspiracy Theory Ever Sold
Besides the problem of trying to connect Luke, Paul and the disciples with Krishna or Mithrias those who don't believe Jesus really existed face other problems. If a handful, or hundreds, of people who were the first Christians made up this allegedly non-existent Jesus their "fable" could have and would have been squashed by the Jews of that day.
Those who wrote the New Testament said that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. The idea of a mythical figure fulfilling these prophecies would have outraged the Jews of the first through fourth centuries and they would have ABSOLUTELY made it known that there was no person named Yeshua of Nazareth who was crucified and rose from the dead. But what did the Jews do? About 200 B.C. they changed Psalm 22:16 to "Like a Lion are my hands and feet" when they created the Masoretic text. They understood the implications of this verse and wouldn't accept that Jesus is the Messiah. The LXX (or septuagint) was written about 200 B.C., four hundred years earlier than the MT, and in the LXX it says "they have pierced my hands and feet." In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were written centuries before the Masoretic text, it says "They have pierced my hands and my feet." ps22cheat.html
Also, if Luke, Paul and the disciples learned of Mithras from Roman Soldiers and based this alleged Jesus myth on Mithras, Roman Soldiers could have easily made it known that this was a copycat and they had not crucified and guarded the tomb of any Yeshua of Nazareth. Funny....after persecuting and killing the early Christians, Christianity eventually became the official religion of the Roman empire. Hmmmmmm.
Then there's the question of motive. Were there early Christians that were arrested, flogged and killed for something that they knew was a lie? If so it begs the question why? Motive, motive, motive?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Kapyong, posted 06-25-2005 7:51 PM Jabez1000 has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 224 of 378 (219609)
06-25-2005 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Jabez1000
06-25-2005 3:36 PM


Re: The Greatest Conspiracy Theory Ever Sold
Greetings Jabez1000,
quote:
Besides the problem of trying to connect Luke, Paul and the disciples with Krishna or Mithrias
Pardon?
WHo tried to do that ?
quote:
If a handful, or hundreds, of people who were the first Christians made up this allegedly non-existent Jesus their "fable" could have and would have been squashed by the Jews of that day.
Why?
The Jesus of Paul was a spiritual being.
Paul says nothing to argue with.
The Gospel stories did not arise till a century or soo after the alleged events.
No Christian shows any knowledge of the Gospels until early-mid 2nd century.
Aristides specifically calls the Gospels new and un-named in his time (mid 2nd century.)
Between the arrival of the Gospels and the period they were set in lies :
* two wars with the Romans
* the destruction of the Temple
* the razing of Jerusalem
* the killing and dispersal of Judea
* several generations.
So,
when the Gospels arose in early-mid 2nd century in Rome,
there were no "Jews of that day" to check with.
Suppose I wrote a story set in WW1 ?
If it was not debunked, would that make it true?
Consider this novel :
[Robinson, Derek. Hornet's Sting. 1999. 405 p.
A humorous novel set around a British air squadron operating over Europe in 1917 tells the uproarious tale of Captain Woolley's air war--a booze-fueled campaign that could result in one hundred percent casualties. (MN only)]
It has not been debunked by the people of the day -
do you think that makes it true?
And since when is LITERATURE debunked?
You simply do NOT grasp the argument.
Was Lord of the Rings debunked?
Do you think it is true?
Was Gone With The Wind debunked?
Do you think it is true?
Was James Bond debunked?
Do you think it is true?
Anyway,
once the Gospels did come to light,
they WERE attacked as FICTION based on MYTHS.
And,
Jews later made up all sorts of horrible stories about Jesus.
quote:
Those who wrote the New Testament said that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament.
The NT was written based on the stories from the OT.
Thats like saying Harry Potter book 3 fulfilled the prophecies in Harry Potter book 1.
quote:
The idea of a mythical figure fulfilling these prophecies would have outraged the Jews of the first through fourth centuries and they would have ABSOLUTELY made it known that there was no person named Yeshua of Nazareth who was crucified and rose from the dead.
The Jews only found out about the Gospel stories long long after the events.
When they DID find out, they made all sorts of critical comments and claims and stories about him.
It just never occured to him that he never existed.
quote:
But what did the Jews do? About 200 B.C. they changed Psalm 22:16 to "Like a Lion are my hands and feet" when they created the Masoretic text. They understood the implications of this verse and wouldn't accept that Jesus is the Messiah. The LXX (or septuagint) was written about 200 B.C., four hundred years earlier than the MT, and in the LXX it says "they have pierced my hands and feet." In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were written centuries before the Masoretic text, it says "They have pierced my hands and my feet."
Rubbish.
What is your evidence that Jews changed this in reponse to Christian beliefs?
quote:
Also, if Luke, Paul and the disciples learned of Mithras from Roman Soldiers and based this alleged Jesus myth on Mithras
This is not what the Christ Myth argues.
Just the usual Christian mis-understanding of it.
quote:
Roman Soldiers could have easily made it known that this was a copycat and they had not crucified and guarded the tomb of any Yeshua of Nazareth.
So, in other words -
If the story was true, then the story is true!
The soldiers are merely part of the STORY!
Consider -
Gandalf could have pointed out that Sauron was fictional - Gandlaf didn't do that, therefore Sauron is TRUE!
quote:
Funny....after persecuting and killing the early Christians, Christianity eventually became the official religion of the Roman empire. Hmmmmmm.
So?
Islam was the official religion of earlier empires - does that make it true to you?
Hinduism was the offial religion of the Mogul empire - does that make it true to you?
quote:
Then there's the question of motive. Were there early Christians that were arrested, flogged and killed for something that they knew was a lie?
Please pay attention.
No-one said they knew it was a lie.
It's very sad that apologists still rarely even GRASP the argument for a mythical Jesus.
Christians really BELIEVED these stories - that does NOT make them TRUE.
The Heaven's Gate cult really BELIEVED their stories - that does NOT make them TRUE.
Muslims really BELIEVE their stories - that does NOT make them TRUE.
Suicide bombers die for their beliefs EVERY DAY now - that does NOT make them TRUE.
The Heaven's Gate cult died for their beliefs - that does NOT make them TRUE.
Do you get it yet?
People BELIEVE all sorts of false things.
People DIE for the belief in all sorts of false things.
So what?
quote:
If so it begs the question why? Motive, motive, motive
Why did Apuleis write The Golden Ass?
Why was the Gita written?
Why was the Koran written?
Why did Tolkein write LOTR?
Why did Margaret Mitchell write Gone With the Wind?
You seem to be saying that if someone bothered to write a story, it must be TRUE - why do you think that?
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Jabez1000, posted 06-25-2005 3:36 PM Jabez1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Jabez1000, posted 06-27-2005 12:39 PM Kapyong has replied

d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 378 (219632)
06-25-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by AdminAsgara
06-25-2005 2:36 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines reminder
Funny how you lash out at my post which has no name calling and say nothing about post 218. Hmmm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-25-2005 2:36 PM AdminAsgara has replied

Replies to this message:
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