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Author Topic:   Christian Group has bank account removed due to "unacceptable views"
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 46 of 291 (219788)
06-26-2005 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Monk
06-26-2005 6:27 PM


It seems to be the extreme nature of the views - at least as expressed by the group. I've had a browse on the sebsite and their views are..odd. Apparently accepting the various convnetions on human rights are a violation of the Fist COmmandment
The "Jerry Springer: The Opera" business was some weeks ago. I can't see any reason to assume that that incident was a direct cause. At most it may have triggered an investigation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Monk, posted 06-26-2005 6:27 PM Monk has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 291 (219791)
06-26-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Silent H
06-26-2005 3:27 PM


Re: Persecute those who persecute
Faith, if you feel that a class of person is bad and should be persecuted in some way for what they do, then you are by definition a bigot.
I think people should do as they please but not do it in anybody's face, such as in parades down main streets, and not be given any special status by the government for doing it and not be allowed to change 6000-year-old crosscultural tradition to accommodate what they do (gay marriage), and not be subjected to any kind of persecution for it.
Guess what, I also think bigots are human beings and to attack personal beliefs no matter what they are, including bigotry, such as by denying services to them, makes the deniers worse than bigots. Leave people alone.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 07:29 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 07:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Coragyps, posted 06-26-2005 7:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 67 by nator, posted 06-26-2005 10:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 71 by Thor, posted 06-26-2005 10:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 48 of 291 (219792)
06-26-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Silent H
06-26-2005 6:48 PM


You don't think the CV enjoyed all the free publicity they just got? This total nonissue allowed them access to print and radio media.
I don't know, that may indeed be what CV was after. Is it known which side went public first?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Silent H, posted 06-26-2005 6:48 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 291 (219795)
06-26-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by nator
06-26-2005 2:25 PM


Re: for what reason?
I seem to remember something in the bible that goes, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Show me where objecting to homosexuality on the ground that its support by the society will bring God's wrath on the society is throwing a stone. Seems to me the stones being thrown are being aimed at Christian Voice and on this typical EvC thread, at me.
Thanks for the rest of your vote of confidence. Let's see, I've got Chas Knight, crash, you, jar, Ned, and who all else here hating my guts for what, for saying that I think the bank has the right to deny business to whomever, and that being a Bible-believing Christian I agree with Steve Green, who is trying to save his nation from God's wrath.
Nobody cared about his sad plea that Britain once called on the God of the Bible to protect her in two world wars, and now she's thumbing her nose at that God?
I guess not.
No sane society has ever given active support to any kind of sin against God's Law. Protection of course, since we're all sinners, but government or any kind of official accommodation to such behavior calls down judgment on the society.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 07:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 06-26-2005 2:25 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Coragyps, posted 06-26-2005 7:56 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 54 by jar, posted 06-26-2005 8:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by lfen, posted 06-26-2005 8:53 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 56 by NosyNed, posted 06-26-2005 8:59 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 72 by nator, posted 06-26-2005 10:45 PM Faith has replied
 Message 99 by CK, posted 06-27-2005 3:39 AM Faith has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 50 of 291 (219796)
06-26-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:25 PM


Re: Persecute those who persecute
I think people should do as they please but not do it in anybody's face, such as in parades down main streets, and not be given any special status by the government for doing it
So we need to have plain facades on the front of churches, and no big steeples and such, and do away with their tax-free status. Is that what you're saying?
I didn't think it was......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:55 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 291 (219797)
06-26-2005 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Coragyps
06-26-2005 7:53 PM


Re: Persecute those who persecute
You are right, I was imprecise. Not that you didn't know that, you clever trapper. I mean we can't disallow private SINS, period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Coragyps, posted 06-26-2005 7:53 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 52 of 291 (219798)
06-26-2005 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:47 PM


Re: for what reason?
No sane society has ever given active support to any kind of sin against God's Law.
Yeah, we've been stoning nonbelievers, shrimp-eaters, and people that work on the Sabbath to death for years around here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 53 of 291 (219800)
06-26-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
06-26-2005 1:07 PM


Re: for what reason?
Right now in the US we have seen decades of persecution of native Americans, Afro Americans, gays, and the mentally ill. Do you think Christians will be as persecuted as these groups? The President of the United States is a Christian as are many legislators.
We have already seen the Communists blocks persecutions of the Church but in Europe and Russia that is passing away. And historically how bad was it in Rome, vs the stories the Christians later told about it. I'm not saying it was good, but I think the Church exaggerated it and eventually they persecuted by burning and slaughter non Christians. Around the world persecutions occur for many reasons, tribal, religious, political some of it is really horrible. I don't think Christians except in specific countries like China, but China is persecuting all kinds of people, that is the definition of a totalitarian government.
This bank thing has precedent in the complex civil right issues. It's not an opening shot in the persecution of Christians.
lfen
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 1:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:04 PM lfen has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 291 (219805)
06-26-2005 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:47 PM


Yet more misrepresentation.
Faith, in her continuing campaign of misrepresentaations, says:
Let's see, I've got Chas Knight, crash, you, jar, Ned, and who all else here hating my guts
Please show where I've said I hate your guts?
As a matter of record, I don't hate you.
I don't see hate as even close to the mark.
Sadness? Sure.
Complete puzzlement? Sure.
Pity? Sure.
I will admit I feel sorry for you and hope that someday you find Christ. I'll keep you in my prayers.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:11 PM jar has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 55 of 291 (219806)
06-26-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:47 PM


Re: for what reason?
Seems to me the stones being thrown are being aimed at Christian Voice and on this typical EvC thread, at me.
No stones are being thrown. You've not been hit by any stones at all from anyone here unless you've met them in person. SToning was a horrible actual punishment. What is happening here is debate and discussion. If you think this is the equivalent of physical violence I really think you should avoid this site.
I recall once I had brought a friend home from college. My sister stoppped by the house and we got engaged in a political discussion. She was very conservative and I was very liberal. We were sitting on the edges of our chairs arguing in loud excited voices when she looked at her watch and said, "Oh, I've got to run I'm late picking up the kids." We gave each other a big hug and she dashed out. Later my friend said that he was a little concerned about our discussion being so heated until he saw us hug. We argued our positions passionately and never did agree but that had nothing to do with how we felt about one another. At one point you claimed I hated your guts. I've no hatred for you personally at all. I've passionate disagreement with many of your positions and great irritation with some of your attitudes. You are not being stoned! You are not being hated! You are being disagreed with. Is it your position that to love you one must agree entirely with your opinions and accept all of your attitudes?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 56 of 291 (219807)
06-26-2005 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:47 PM


Hatred? what emotion?
Let's see, I've got Chas Knight, crash, you, jar, Ned, and who all else here hating my guts for what, for saying that I think the bank has the right to deny business to whomever, and that being a Bible-believing Christian I agree with Steve Green, who is trying to save his nation from God's wrath.
Hating? Not at all. I don't know you. You have, as far as I know not committed any acts that might lead me to such a strong emotion.
How do I feel? About like you might if you were in close quarters with someone hearing voices and ranting about it: a mix of about 80% pity and 20% fear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 57 of 291 (219808)
06-26-2005 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by lfen
06-26-2005 8:28 PM


Re: for what reason?
Right now in the US we have seen decades of persecution of native Americans, Afro Americans, gays, and the mentally ill.
Far from it lfen. What we have seen in the US in the last century is the CORRECTION of previous periods of injustice to such groups, and in the case of the mentally ill there is some question whether forcing them out into the streets was any great blessing to them. (Mental hospitals were originally founded as Christian charities out of compassion for the mentally ill, whatever they may have degenerated into). What we are seeing RIGHT NOW is continued haranguing about rights that have long since been granted, for the purpose of demonizing conservatives, by the Left whose agenda has always been the destruction of the West. They are continuing to succeed and they appear to have your support.
Do you think Christians will be as persecuted as these groups?
Far more.
The President of the United States is a Christian as are many legislators.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a massive sudden sea change in all that, coming soon.
We have already seen the Communists blocks persecutions of the Church but in Europe and Russia that is passing away.
But it's picking up in the Middle East, Africa, Indonesia, China, North Korea...
And historically how bad was it in Rome, vs the stories the Christians later told about it. I'm not saying it was good, but I think the Church exaggerated it and eventually they persecuted by burning and slaughter non Christians.
Christians violate the Bible in persecuting anyone for heresy, which to my mind makes them non-Christians, but servants of the anti-Christ. As far as Rome goes, Nero did burn Christians as torches to light his gardens, and various Caesars did put them in the arena to be torn to shreds by lions for sport. I did read some of Foxe's Book of Martyrs but it's been a while.
Around the world persecutions occur for many reasons, tribal, religious, political some of it is really horrible.
Yes, Christians aren't alone in being persecuted but they are consistently persecuted for their beliefs wherever they ARE persecuted.
I don't think Christians except in specific countries like China, but China is persecuting all kinds of people, that is the definition of a totalitarian government.
True. And in China the reports are that the Christian population is increasing by thousands per day too - because persecution and martyrdom has always been a catalyst for growth. Some predict that it won't be long before China is 50% Christian.
This bank thing has precedent in the complex civil right issues. It's not an opening shot in the persecution of Christians.
No, it's simply another expression of it. There really are no more legitimate government-level or even public level civil rights issues in the West, except the growing marginalization of Christians in my opinion, but I know that's not going to get any attention soon.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 09:07 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 09:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by lfen, posted 06-26-2005 8:28 PM lfen has not replied

  
bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 58 of 291 (219809)
06-26-2005 9:10 PM


about time a Brit joined in
Let me add a bit of background to the original OP. (as a Brit.)
The Co-Operative bank is a little bit different to the standard, as banks go. They originate from the co-operative movement from the 1800's in Rochdale, Lancashire (My home county). These were based on the commune ideal (think Kibbutz) where barter and trade were the way forward. The company shops paid DIVIDENDS to its best customers based on the profits that year, and nobody owned the company.
This ideal was carried forward into the 20th century with many local (Co-Op) shops offering stamps in proportion to moneys spent which could be exchanged for future purchases (proportioned out as determined by profits).
Their ideology currently is based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and so will not invest in any government or business which fails to uphold basic human rights within its sphere of influence and any business whose links to an oppressive regime are a continuing cause for concern, (both lifted from their own website).
To my mind these classifications include an organistaion that states that "The only hope for our dysfunctional nation lies in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ."and "Acts of Parliament are regarded in this paper(Christian Voice tract) as "unrighteous legislation"". Sounds like an organisation that has problems with Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Shintoists, Taoists, paganists and atheists. Not just problems but would deny them any say in the governing of their own country. Sounds pretty repressive to me.
So Faith et al, sorry to be so dismissive of your protests but if you want to be prejudiced do not bank with the Co-Op. At least if you read the website you will know in advance. Which I am sure you do.
I read these forums regularly and have only just stuck my oar in, but I would like to know if any Christian reading the original story and believing themselves to be prejudiced against have done any background on this? If so you may know that the Co-op bank does not invest in tobacco, arms, oil exploration or any government independently classified as having an oppressive regime. These principles have not stopped them from turning a profit. Actually these principles have increased their client base and the action in suspending the account of Christian Voice will only reinforce this.
Last point. In the first 30-odd posts not one person seemed to grasp that the principle to suspend the account was a long established one, ie the Co-op did not invent this to stop this one group. Christian Voice would have been aware of this at the time they opened the account.
Good Night

Apophenia:seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
Pareidolia:vague or random stimulus being perceived (mistakenly) as recognisable.
Ramsey Theoryatterns may exist.
Whoops!

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:15 PM bobbins has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 291 (219810)
06-26-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
06-26-2005 8:46 PM


Re: Yet more misrepresentation.
What you are describing and Ned and Lfen IS hate, whether you want to call it that or not.
What is character assassination, personal depreciation, denigration of personality etc. but hatred?
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 09:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 06-26-2005 8:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 06-26-2005 9:16 PM Faith has replied
 Message 94 by lfen, posted 06-26-2005 11:53 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 291 (219811)
06-26-2005 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by bobbins
06-26-2005 9:10 PM


Re: about time a Brit joined in
Last point. In the first 30-odd posts not one person seemed to grasp that the principle to suspend the account was a long established one, ie the Co-op did not invent this to stop this one group. Christian Voice would have been aware of this at the time they opened the account.
It was clear that the policy was in force, but CV says they made their program quite clear and were not refused the account on the basis of it, only later dropped despite the previous understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 9:10 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 9:27 PM Faith has replied

  
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