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Author Topic:   Christian Group has bank account removed due to "unacceptable views"
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 291 (219812)
06-26-2005 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
06-26-2005 9:11 PM


Re: Yet more misrepresentation.
Well, I guess this is the third or fourth time in this thread where I've asked you to support one of your libelous statements. Who knows, maybe this time will be the charm.
Please point to my statements that are hateful.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:52 PM jar has not replied

  
bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 62 of 291 (219813)
06-26-2005 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-26-2005 9:15 PM


Re: about time a Brit joined in
Well that would be the first time that a mission statement formed part of opening a current account. What is the source for stating that the Co-op was aware of their stance at the opening of the account? My local paper (Manchester Evening News - local to the story as well) and the CV spokesman Stephen Green make no mention of this and Green even ends with the slanderous quote "Now we have found how pro-homosexual the Co-op bank is , we would not want to do business with them, we would have jumped before being pushed."

Apophenia:seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
Pareidolia:vague or random stimulus being perceived (mistakenly) as recognisable.
Ramsey Theoryatterns may exist.
Whoops!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:30 PM bobbins has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 63 of 291 (219814)
06-26-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by bobbins
06-26-2005 9:27 PM


Re: about time a Brit joined in
CV says they discussed their work before opening the account, whether that amounts to a Mission Statement or not I wouldn't know. What's slanderous about his repeating what the Bank representative himself acknowledged?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 9:27 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 9:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 291 (219815)
06-26-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
06-26-2005 9:16 PM


Re: Yet more misrepresentation.
Hatred isn't an emotion as I am using the term, nor do I use the word "love" in that sense either. They are both actions. You have repeatedly depreciated me and bullied me in a personal way and that is hating me. To say you pity me is to say something personal and denigrating and that is hating me. You treat me with disrespect, that's hating me.
Interesting how willing you all are to smear me and support each other no matter how abusive any individual gets. Typical mob psychology. Oh, and all men but one against a lone woman. How gallant. How the West has fallen.
I have not libeled you. I have drawn logical conclusions from some of your statements to make a point.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 10:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 06-26-2005 9:16 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 06-26-2005 10:28 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 69 by DrJones*, posted 06-26-2005 10:31 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 77 by nator, posted 06-26-2005 10:57 PM Faith has replied

  
bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 65 of 291 (219816)
06-26-2005 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
06-26-2005 9:30 PM


Re: about time a Brit joined in
sorry, I butted in without listening to the BBC interview. The representatives of both sides seem to say things of which I was not aware. However I am dubious as to the claim of aggressive pro-homosexuality on the side of the Co-op for 2 reasons. The first is that the headquarters of Co-op are in Manchester, a city with the largest gay community in the UK outside of London and proportionally the largest in Europe. It would be commercial suicide to not assist/participate in the Mardi-Gras festival organized by the Gay village in Manchester. This charge of aggressive pro-homosexuality would then be aimed at the police, Coca-Cola, Carling, Stella Artois, Manchester City council, the Fire Brigade, many radio stations , BBC television, Manchester Evening News, Reebok, Vodaphone and many others as co-sponsers of the said event. Sponsorship of this event means, I would expect, a certain amount of sponsorship for similar events around the country.
The second point is that the UK is still quite a traditional country. Whilst the law and Government is supporting sexual diversity and equality, the general population is not. Many friends of mine (the majority) will not go drinking in the area of Manchester known as the village, despite the fact that some of the best clubs and bars are there, along with lower levels of threatening, drunken behaviour and violence. To be aggressively pro-homosexuality would certainly not be commercially viable nor ethically justifiable. Their stance is non-judgemental.
Further to the point that the Co-op was made aware of the aims/stance of the Christian Voice organisation. Did Stephen Green make this plain? I am not sure. There seemed to be a lot of inference needed and the interviewer was not sure that it's traditional family life message necessarily precluded tolerance of homosexuality. Certainly the name Christian Voice does not exude intolerance.
This message has been edited by bobbins, 06-26-2005 09:59 PM

Apophenia:seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
Pareidolia:vague or random stimulus being perceived (mistakenly) as recognisable.
Ramsey Theoryatterns may exist.
Whoops!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 10:06 PM bobbins has replied
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 06-26-2005 10:48 PM bobbins has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 66 of 291 (219819)
06-26-2005 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by bobbins
06-26-2005 9:56 PM


Re: about time a Brit joined in
Yes, perhaps it is the "love of money [that is] the root of all evil" calling the shots there. That would make sense. Can't jeopardize our profits for the paltry purpose of defending God and morality.
Whilst the law and Government is supporting sexual diversity and equality, the general population is not.
Same here. So much for "government of the people, by the people, for the people."
Hang it all, let the nation come under God's wrath. "Oh but we don't BELIEVE in that." Well, God does, so good luck.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 10:26 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 9:56 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 10:32 PM Faith has replied
 Message 75 by nator, posted 06-26-2005 10:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 67 of 291 (219827)
06-26-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:25 PM


Re: Persecute those who persecute
quote:
I think people should do as they please but not do it in anybody's face, such as in parades down main streets,
Oh, do you mean like Christmas and Easter parades?
quote:
and not be given any special status by the government for doing it
Oh, do you mean like the fact that Christmas is a national holiday?
quote:
and not be allowed to change 6000-year-old crosscultural tradition to accommodate what they do (gay marriage),
and not be allowed to change 6000-year-old crosscultural tradition to accommodate what they do (interracial/interfaith marriage)
quote:
and not be subjected to any kind of persecution for it.
So, a gay couple who doesn't invite you to their wedding and just wants to live their life together in peace is OK with you?
quote:
Guess what, I also think bigots are human beings and to attack personal beliefs no matter what they are, including bigotry, such as by denying services to them, makes the deniers worse than bigots. Leave people alone.
I work at a Jewish deli.
If people came into the store dressed in white sheets at tall, pointy hoods, or perhaps in Nazi or Hitler costumes, would you consider the managers or the owners at fault for refusing to serve them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 10:47 PM nator has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 68 of 291 (219828)
06-26-2005 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
06-26-2005 9:52 PM


Interesting how willing you all are to smear me and support each other no matter how abusive any individual gets.
No matter how abusive any of us get, you were there first with ten times the invective. You're in absolutely no position whatsoever to lecture anyone on their behavior.
Oh, and all men but one against a lone woman.
And now you're hiding behind your sex? You're despicable. Clearly there's no depth to which you won't sink.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 69 of 291 (219830)
06-26-2005 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
06-26-2005 9:52 PM


Re: Yet more misrepresentation.
Oh, and all men but one against a lone woman. How gallant. How the West has fallen.
What you should get special treatment because you have a vagina? Does having a vagina make you inherently weaker than men with their mighty penises peni?? Does it somehow alter your ability to debate effectivly?

*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 9:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
bobbins
Member (Idle past 3613 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 70 of 291 (219831)
06-26-2005 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
06-26-2005 10:06 PM


Re: about time a Brit joined in
Personally I am glad that the Government and the law does not operate on the whims, prejudices and biggotry of the people. The principle of a just law is that all are equal in the sight of the law. Not the one with the loudest voice or the biggest bank balance or the best looking or who owns the media or is friends with the friend of the local Big Cheese. The law is blind, meaning blind to money, influence, colour, sexual preference and social standing.
As to your accusation that profits cannot be jeopardized by principles, how about profits generated by principles? Co-op investors seem to agree.
Since when did God (your capital letters) mean the God of Christian Voice over and above the God of the majority of people that bank with the co-op or live in the UK? Since when did the morality of Christian Voice mean more than the morality of a long established (150+ years) bank and the majority of it's customers?
Do not mention blindly God and morality without stating specifically YOUR God and YOUR morality, otherwise you are the one being prejudiced and biased.

Apophenia:seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
Pareidolia:vague or random stimulus being perceived (mistakenly) as recognisable.
Ramsey Theoryatterns may exist.
Whoops!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 10:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 11:16 PM bobbins has not replied

  
Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 71 of 291 (219833)
06-26-2005 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:25 PM


Re: Persecute those who persecute
I think people should do as they please but not do it in anybody's face
Absolutely, I could not agree more. Like those annoying Christians who are always shoving their propaganda pamphlets ‘in my face’ outside the train station first thing in the morning. Or the groups of Christians I often see in the local main street, singing cheesy, preachy songs, in everyone’s faces. Then there are the Christians who come around to my house on weekend mornings, knocking on my door for the purpose of shoving their literature in my face. What about the local church I drive past each morning with a big sign out the front saying Know Christ, know life. No Christ, no life. Nor can I forget the Christians I’ve seen sometimes at the bottom of the escalator at the train station, yelling out sermons to the people as they descend (during the afternoon rush hour, when most of those people are going home tired after a long hard day at work).
such as in parades down main streets
At least those gay pride parades are generally annual events, which you have the option of not attending or watching if you don’t care for it. The aforementioned Christians make a special effort to make themselves difficult to avoid, and they do it all year round. I don’t recall ever having a gay man hand me a pamphlet saying that buggery is fun and that I should try it. Nor do I ever recall seeing a bunch of muscled shirtless men in tight leather shorts dancing to techno music in my local main street. Or if I see a gay bar, on the outside it looks like any other bar and they don’t have big signs up proclaiming that homosexual behaviour is the only way you can live a rewarding, satisfying life.
I wonder who is more in your face?
Guess what, I also think bigots are human beings and to attack personal beliefs no matter what they are, including bigotry, such as by denying services to them, makes the deniers worse than bigots. Leave people alone.
So, imagine you were the manager of a bank and were able to use your discretion to decide who to accept as account holders, in order to uphold the bank’s reputation. If a rep of the local church of satan worshipers came in wanting to open up their church account, or if the hardcore European adult DVD store down the street came in wanting to do their business banking with you, would you be happy to take them on as customers?

On the 7th day, God was arrested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 72 of 291 (219835)
06-26-2005 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-26-2005 7:47 PM


Re: for what reason?
quote:
Show me where objecting to homosexuality on the ground that its support by the society will bring God's wrath on the society is throwing a stone.
You are judging others, plain and simple.
That Bible passage I mentioned came straight from Christ as he chastized the Pharisees for wanting to stone a sinful woman, IIRC.
You are judging others and Christ would chastize you just as he did the Pharisees, I should think.
quote:
Seems to me the stones being thrown are being aimed at Christian Voice and on this typical EvC thread, at me.
Well, hateful, mean groups like CV are drawing fire, yes, and your support of their hate is also drawing criticism, it's true.
quote:
Thanks for the rest of your vote of confidence.
Look, do you deny that you are NOT generally a voice of love, joy, and generosity atround here, and in fact are quite the opposite?
Was Christ one to threaten and was he angry all the time like you, or was he known as the Prince of Peace?
quote:
Let's see, I've got Chas Knight, crash, you, jar, Ned, and who
all else here hating my guts for what,
Hate your guts?
Oh my, hardly.
I am often amused by your incredible venom (not so poisonous lately!), impressed with your ability to perform intellectual contorsions previously unknown to humanity, and often saddened by the apparent waste of such a fine intellect, but hate you? No.
Sorry, your persecution complex won't get any feeding from me.
quote:
for saying that I think the bank has the right to deny business to whomever, and that being a Bible-believing Christian I agree with Steve Green, who is trying to save his nation from God's wrath.
So, if this group decided that women shouldn't be allowed to own property, and in fact, should actually go back to being the property of their fathers and husbands, because clearly this is how the Bible wishes society to be run, would it be OK with you?
If a bank refused to deal with women, would that be OK with you?
quote:
No sane society has ever given active support to any kind of sin against God's Law.
Oh, you mean like the sin against keeping no other gods but God?
You know, the First Commandment?
So, no other society in the world has ever given active support to a plural society in which people are free to worship any god or gods they please?
Funny, I was thinking of one very near and dear to me that, lo and behold, I am living in RIGHT NOW!
quote:
Protection of course, since we're all sinners, but government or any kind of official accommodation to such behavior calls down judgment on the society.
...according to you, the final arbiter of all things correct about Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 7:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 10:54 PM nator has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 291 (219837)
06-26-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by nator
06-26-2005 10:27 PM


Re: Persecute those who persecute
I think people should do as they please but not do it in anybody's face, such as in parades down main streets,
==========
Oh, do you mean like Christmas and Easter parades?
I answered this silliness elsewhere but I guess you didn't check the other answers taking advantage of my imprecise wording, which is all it was and you know it.
The point is tolerance of SIN. We are to TOLERATE it, as we are all sinners, short of criminal behavior of course, but not CELEBRATE it, FLAUNT it, PROMOTE it. That's the point. I hope it's clear but if I've failed to be as clear as necessary I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out what I meant and help me out here a little.
But I suppose many would prefer gay parades to anything that reminds them of Christianity. It's come to that here in the formerly Christian West.
and not be given any special status by the government for doing it
===
Oh, do you mean like the fact that Christmas is a national holiday?
SO clever of you. Yes, Schraf, that's going too, isn't it, and I suppose when it's completely outlawed you will dance in the streets along with the guys in the pink feathers.
and not be allowed to change 6000-year-old crosscultural tradition to accommodate what they do (gay marriage),
and not be allowed to change 6000-year-old crosscultural tradition to accommodate what they do (interracial/interfaith marriage)
The 6000 years and the universal cultural practice clearly establish the historical purpose of marriage as the protection and support of women and children by men and society. There is no such need, except a manufactured ideology, for any such function for gays. And those 6000 years of crosscultural practice do not justify opposition to interracial marriages, although like the prohibition of interfaith marriages, it seems to me that ought to be a cultural or familial right, short of murdering the participants anyway, or at least the female, as is done in Islam of course.
And not be subjected to any kind of persecution for it.
=======
So, a gay couple who doesn't invite you to their wedding and just wants to live their life together in peace is OK with you?
As I said, it's their business. When government changes laws about marriage that becomes my business.
Guess what, I also think bigots are human beings and to attack personal beliefs no matter what they are, including bigotry, such as by denying services to them, makes the deniers worse than bigots. Leave people alone.
I work at a Jewish deli.
If people came into the store dressed in white sheets at tall, pointy hoods, or perhaps in Nazi or Hitler costumes, would you consider the managers or the owners at fault for refusing to serve them?
I've already made it clear on this thread that I believe business may refuse to serve whomever they please for whatever reason.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-26-2005 10:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by nator, posted 06-26-2005 10:27 PM nator has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 291 (219838)
06-26-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by bobbins
06-26-2005 9:56 PM


The second point is that the UK is still quite a traditional country. Whilst the law and Government is supporting sexual diversity and equality, the general population is not.
That's absolutely incorrect. What do you think is driving the shift in British policy towards gay equality? It's being driven by the people, not in spite of them:
quote:
According to the British Social Attitudes survey, 70% of Britons thought homosexuality was wrong in 1985; by 2000 that had dropped to 47%. Moreover, there is a startling generational divide: 60% of people aged 60 and over still thought homosexuality was always wrong in 2000, but only 23% of people under 30 did.
Home - Arador
Many friends of mine (the majority) will not go drinking in the area of Manchester known as the village, despite the fact that some of the best clubs and bars are there, along with lower levels of threatening, drunken behaviour and violence.
I'm sorry your friends are homophobes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 9:56 PM bobbins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by bobbins, posted 06-26-2005 11:26 PM crashfrog has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 75 of 291 (219839)
06-26-2005 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
06-26-2005 10:06 PM


Re: about time a Brit joined in
quote:
Can't jeopardize our profits for the paltry purpose of defending God and morality.
And you are, naturally, the final arbiter of what God wants and what is and isn't moral, aren't you?
quote:
Same here. So much for "government of the people, by the people, for the people."
"The people" were mostly against equal rights for women and African Americans, too.
Do you think women getting the vote was wrong because most people in the country didn't want it? What about ending Jim Crowe?
quote:
Hang it all, let the nation come under God's wrath. "Oh but we don't BELIEVE in that." Well, God does, so good luck.
...and you are, naturally, the final arbiter of what God wants, aren't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 10:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
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