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Author Topic:   Christian Group has bank account removed due to "unacceptable views"
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 121 of 291 (220413)
06-28-2005 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by PaulK
06-27-2005 9:05 AM


Re: Christian voices on "Christian Voice"
From the sites quoted above it is clear that Christian Voice makes extreme statements that are not representative of the wider Christian community.
Thus there is no basis for claiming that the action taken by the Cooperative Bank is aimed at anything more than one extremist group. To claim that it is aimed at Christians in general is to ignore the nature of Christian Voice. To claim that the Cooperative Bank's action is based solely on the statement that homosexuality is sinful as Christian Voice claims is also false.
As the Cooperative Bank says
The Co-operative Bank asked Christian Voice to close its account on the basis of the hateful and offensive statements they peddle, and their aim of stigmatising people who are homosexual. Their statements go far beyond the view held by some Christians that 'homosexuality is a sin:' alleging that homosexuals are 'formed' via paedophilia (and that they will in turn propagate this further), and that their innate 'corruptness' renders them unfit for the police force.
Latest Statement on Christian Voice
Whatever you think of the Cooperative Bank's actions, Christian Voice's handling of the situation has been less than honest. If they really represent Christianity, why doesn't their press release admit to the true reasons they were asked to close their account ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 06-27-2005 9:05 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 291 (220424)
06-28-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-26-2005 11:41 AM


Back to the original topic.
quote:
Should a bank or other private organization refuse service on the basic of religious viewpoints?
My own viewpoint - while I agree with the stance of the Co-Op, I am slightly worried that people's right to free speech should be the basic of discrimination.
My feeling is that if an organization is founded to promote a certain policy, or has adopted a certain policy, and advertises this, then that organization should be free to conduct its business and refuse to conduct its business with whomever it feels is appropriate to that mission. It appears on the surface that Co-op Bank has made a public and explicit commitment to support gay rights, and so I agree that, in this particular case, Co-op Bank is justified in labelling this one extremist group as contrary to its public mission and so is unwilling to do business with them. I agree that there are potential gray areas here, but this particular case does not fall into a gray area.
My concern would be if a bank that did not have any particular, explicit mission beyond making a profit (except for some vague commitment to furthering the "public good") would refuse to do business with Christian Voice, especially if it were very difficult or impossible to find a bank that would do business with them.
As a communist living in the US, I am very sensitive to discrimination based on one's beliefs. Even now, as an untenured instructor at a public institution in a very conservative state, I find myself reluctant to express my opinions when the conversation turns to a political or social subject. In that respect, I do have some sympathy for Christian Voice -- or I would if it came that they could not find a local bank at all with whom to do business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 06-26-2005 11:41 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Dr Jack, posted 06-28-2005 11:50 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 123 of 291 (220427)
06-28-2005 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Chiroptera
06-28-2005 11:40 AM


Re: Back to the original topic.
The co-ops actions are not unprecedented, Barclays (of all people) recently closed the BNP (the major racist-nationalist party in UK politics) bank accounts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Chiroptera, posted 06-28-2005 11:40 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 291 (220591)
06-28-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
06-26-2005 11:36 PM


Re: Yet more misrepresentation.
Thank you, I accept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 06-26-2005 11:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 11:48 PM nator has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 291 (220600)
06-28-2005 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
06-28-2005 9:52 PM


You're welcome
You're welcome. I really don't think you are stupid, I was simply angry, and am very sorry for hurting your feelings.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-28-2005 11:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 9:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 126 of 291 (220621)
06-29-2005 4:07 AM


Another Mancunian joins in
My old local pub had a sign up which said that they would refuse service to anyone who was racist, homophobic, sexist or in some way intolerant to other patrons or peoples. However, it is the law of Britain that a business cannot refuse business based only on religious or racial grounds.
However, if your religion demands that you are vocally racist or homophobic, your crap out of luck. Your religion cannot protect you. If my religion meant that I was obliged to rant and rave about the evils of the black man, I would expect to not get served at my bar, and would probably expect to lose my job.
If true Christianity (as Faith would have has believe) means making the lives of your neighbours and enemies unpleasant (which is a funny a way of loving thy neighbour and loving thy enemy, but there you go), and difficult to live, then true Christians are going to have to learn to live in a society which basis much of its morality on 'freedom until your freedom encroaches the freedoms of others'.
The Co-Op is a bank which advertises itself as being banking with a clear conscience. A bank that doesn't invest in unethical companies or countries, fair trade and all that. It doesn't do things perfectly, but it does what it can.
The Co-Op is not discriminating on religious grounds. They still do business with most people who would consider themselves Christian. They simply refuse to do business with people whose 'religion' is actively intolerant. If an Islamic group was vocally discriminatory against the Jewish population (and applying pressure to charities not to accept money if Jews had raised it), the co-op would refuse to do business with them, likewise a neo-nazi group. Clearly to show religious discrimination it has to be shown this is down to the fact that Christian Voice is Christian, rather than about the views they espouse. If a secular organisation was doing the same and the co-op continued business...then we would have religious discrimination.
"It has come to the bank's attention that Christian Voice is engaged in discriminatory pronouncements based on the grounds of sexual orientation,"
"This public stance is incompatible with the position of the Co-operative Bank, which publicly supports diversity and dignity in all its forms for our staff, customers and other stakeholders."
Christian Voice says it now waits for the bank to bar other Christians and Muslims and Jews who share the same views. This isn't happening because it isn't about religion. It isn't about opinion. It's about what is said and done.
Didn't Christ advocate praying in secret, doing charity in secret, and generally being a Christian without fanfare or trumpet? Why do these people need to shout on the street corners? Surely, they have their reward (Matthew 6).
Interestingly, Christian Voice comes up tops for a google search on 'ignorant bigots'

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 8:45 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 128 by mark24, posted 06-29-2005 10:00 AM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 291 (220636)
06-29-2005 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Modulous
06-29-2005 4:07 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
If true Christianity (as Faith would have has believe) means making the lives of your neighbours and enemies unpleasant
I request that you prove that I have advocated any such thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 4:07 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 10:57 AM Faith has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 128 of 291 (220646)
06-29-2005 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Modulous
06-29-2005 4:07 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
Modulous,
Just an aside.
However, it is the law of Britain that a business cannot refuse business based only on religious or racial grounds.
Is it? I thought it was only in Northern Ireland where intolerance of religion is enshrined in law to the point where you couldn't refuse me a job based on my religion alone.
I recall a radio program that said as much. Maybe it's changed, or was simply wrong in the first place.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 4:07 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Dr Jack, posted 06-29-2005 10:18 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 131 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 11:08 AM mark24 has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 129 of 291 (220652)
06-29-2005 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by mark24
06-29-2005 10:00 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
No, a woman was refused a science job in Oxford on the grounds she was a Creationist. She attempted to sue for religious discrimination (and lost, as the CoE doesn't oppose Evolution the Judge ruled that discriminating against Creationists wasn't discriminating against Christians).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by mark24, posted 06-29-2005 10:00 AM mark24 has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 130 of 291 (220658)
06-29-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
06-29-2005 8:45 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
If true Christianity (as Faith would have has believe) means making the lives of your neighbours and enemies unpleasant
I request that you prove that I have advocated any such thing.
A fair request. First I will take it back, provisionally rewording it to:
quote:
If true Christianity (as Faith would have has believe) can include making the lives of your neighbours and enemies unpleasant...
So let me see if I can prove that you would have us believe that.
Faith writes:
Christians may have to start their own banks...BIBLE-believing God-fearing Christians...I'm foursquare behind Steven Green...Persecution of Christians is coming in spades
OK, I think I show here that you describe Steven Green as a Christian. Steven Green makes the lives of others unpleasant.
With me so far?
Steven Green makes the lives of others unpleasant. You think that is not only acceptable, but a good thing (your foursquare behind him).
So:
Steven Green makes the lives of his neighbours unpleasant
He is a true Christian
True Christianity can include making the lives of your neighbours unpleasant.
I cannot at this time demonstrate that you would have us believe that being a true Christian means making the lives of neighbours unpleasant, unless you believe that all Christians should act as Steven Green has.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 8:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 11:39 AM Modulous has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 131 of 291 (220660)
06-29-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by mark24
06-29-2005 10:00 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
Yes, I don't there is an Act that covers it, just case law AFAIK. I believe that a business can refuse to do business with you and give no reason, but if there is evidence the reason is discriminatory (such as a manager saying that very thing) then there is trouble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by mark24, posted 06-29-2005 10:00 AM mark24 has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 291 (220666)
06-29-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Modulous
06-29-2005 10:57 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
The one crucial thing you left out of your post is: Exactly how does Stephen Green make the lives of others unpleasant?
I would point out that gay parades make the lives of many unpleasant. And unavoidable porn on the internet certainly contributes to the unpleasantness. And oh so many things I could name that intrude upon our lives in an upleasant way for some of us.
It is true that I haven't read the entire Christian Voice site but what little I did read suggests that Stephen Green is simply an advocate against allowing gay rights to make our lives more unpleasant, and that his own unpleasantness to them is limited to his having a political opinion. If all political opinions that we dislike may be described in such terms I guess we could eliminate everyone's right to speech on the ground that they make somebody's life unpleasant. In any case, I don't see that he has DONE anything to deserve your accusation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2005 10:57 AM Modulous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Wounded King, posted 06-29-2005 11:40 AM Faith has replied
 Message 140 by crashfrog, posted 07-03-2005 12:27 PM Faith has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 133 of 291 (220667)
06-29-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
06-29-2005 11:39 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
What about by blackmailing cancer charities to forgoe receiving contributions?
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 06-29-2005 11:40 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 11:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 11:43 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 134 of 291 (220669)
06-29-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Wounded King
06-29-2005 11:40 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
Excuse me?
I don't know what you are referring to, but it SOUNDS like you MIGHT be referring to a choice to boycott an organization that supports something you don't want supported?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Wounded King, posted 06-29-2005 11:40 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Wounded King, posted 06-29-2005 12:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 135 of 291 (220675)
06-29-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
06-29-2005 11:43 AM


Re: Another Mancunian joins in
I'm referring to this..
So you are right in that I don't support depriving charities involved in combatting cancer of funds. I don't see any good purpose served in threatening to protest outside of the centers belonging to, or negatively affect the public image of, a charitable organisation involved in the palliative care of cancer sufferers.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 11:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 06-29-2005 1:19 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
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