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Author Topic:   The location of the Tree of Life
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 286 of 302 (220120)
06-27-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ringo
06-27-2005 3:00 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
This is not going to turn into the gay thread, and you are not righteous in your line of thinking.
I guess here is where we part ways, because there is no way you could get along with someone of my opinion. Too bad.
Far from it. I don't like the term because people parrot it in the same way that they parrot "born again", without understanding what it means.
Let's assume you and I both know what it means. So stop doging the question, and give a yes or no answer.
... people will call me a gay basher, because I am not for same sex marriage.
You're right, I probably would.
Thats where your hate comes in. I feel no hate for anyone, you or gay people.
Jesus said, "Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself." Loving thy neighbour does not include telling him that he can't marry the person of his choice. I'm sorry, but being against same sex marriage is a form of hate.
If I do not agree with gay marraige, and I was gay, I still would not be for it. So if tomorrow I turn gay, I would still be against it. Thats loving them, as I love myself.
It's very simple my stance on the subject. Marraige is just that, marraige, one man, one woman, united to become one.
It would be extremely unfair for gay people to be herded into that same group of people. Gay people clearly need their own set of rules. Example, when 2 guys get divorced, and there is kids involved, who's the mother? It is for their protection.
I would have felt this way before I became "religious" or God believing. God has only re-inforced what I already felt.
I am still searching my soul, and God's word to see if I need to change my stance on the subject, and go against what I feel in my heart. So I remain open minded. I have been involved in many threads on the subject, and had many conversations with gay people about it. They understand my stance perfectly. It's my free will to feel this way, and I should not be hated for it. Hate shouldn't even have to be a factor in all this.
I even know people who used to be gay, and are against it. Go figure.
(I know this is way off-topic, but it demonstrates where the whole fundy-dogma/"spiritual death" thing takes people.)
It's fine if you want to think that way, but I already felt that way, long before I ever set foot in a Christian church, other than the catholic BS that I went to when I was a kid. So don't blame them. I think 80% of the rest of the population agrees with it also. That same 80%, probably 60% of them are just people who aren't really religious, but may lay claim to be. They just know in their hearts that it is wrong, so they are against it.
I know it's different, so I am for it, in another way. I will leave the judging up to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 06-27-2005 3:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 06-27-2005 6:34 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 287 of 302 (220195)
06-27-2005 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by riVeRraT
06-27-2005 4:00 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
I guess here is where we part ways, because there is no way you could get along with someone of my opinion.
Wrong again. Almost everybody I know is of your opinion. That doesn't make it right and it doesn't prevent me from getting along with them.
(Funny how you were all lovey-dovey until the subject of gay marriage came up. )
It would be extremely unfair for gay people to be herded into that same group of people.
It's unfair to give them what they want?
They understand my stance perfectly.
I think black people understand the stance of the Ku Klux Klan too.
I even know people who used to be gay, and are against it.
Do you know anybody who "used to be" black?
I feel no hate for anyone, you or gay people.
Yet you want to deprive them of the joys of marriage. God knows what else you want to deprive them of.
What would you do to somebody you did hate?
-------------
Far from it. I don't like the term because people parrot it in the same way that they parrot "born again", without understanding what it means.
Let's assume you and I both know what it means. So stop doging the question, and give a yes or no answer.
No, let's not assume anything.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by riVeRraT, posted 06-27-2005 4:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 06-28-2005 1:50 AM ringo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1327 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 288 of 302 (220210)
06-27-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by ringo
06-27-2005 2:40 PM


Re: General reply for all to consider
I see. So basically you're trolling these forums then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 06-27-2005 2:40 PM ringo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1327 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 289 of 302 (220219)
06-27-2005 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by arachnophilia
06-23-2005 1:06 PM


Re: let's just change what the bible says.
Freud also thought that mothers cuddle their babies only as a substitute for their desire to have sexual intercourse with them. Jung, on the other hand, felt that Freud devoted far too much energy trying to connect people's mental disabilities with purely sexual urges.
Interestingly, Jung noted that without the reflecting stimulus of a physical environment, without contact with the cycles of day and night, without the reinforcement of self-identity that comes through relationship with others, we find ourselves face to face with Tiamat, the ancient snake goddess of Chaos, a primitive chaotic totality that mythologically preceded the creation of the world.
You've pointed out the reference to the Ugaritic texts. However, you seem to be relying mostly on this interpretation. There are still others who maintain that Enuma Elish from the Babylonian texts also strongly influenced the creation event.
For example, consider the following quotation by Edward T. Babinski
Why I Doubt that Fire-Breathing Dinosaurs Exist Origins of the Divine Conflict with the Dragon writes:
Many scholars have debated the origins of the theme of creation and the divine conflict between God and a sea dragon. Earlier scholars such as Gunkel have proposed that the Old Testament was influenced by the ancient Babylonian myth Enuma Elish.
The myth begins in primordial times, before the creation of the world, with the mingling of the sweet waters of Apsu and the salt waters of Tiamat, whose union produces a series of divine pairs of high gods. These gods multiply to such an extent that their activity begins to disturb the divine rest of Tiamat, who thus decides to make war against her progeny and so creates a host of chaotic beasts, including dragons, to prepare for battle.
The text itself says little as to the appearance of Tiamat herself, yet we know from a representation of her on an engraving that she possessed a thick serpentine body covered in scales. This description is compatible with other descriptions of the sea dragon found in the Old Testament. In the Book of Job we find that the dragon's "back is made of rows of shields, shut up closely as with a seal (Job 41:15)."
From among the gods arises Marduk, who proclaims that he will go into battle and restore order in the cosmos. He fashions a net made of the four winds to ensnare Tiamat. When she opens her mouth to swallow him down he sends a fierce wind into her mouth that swells up her intestines, then shoots an arrow that pierces and splits her belly open. This use of wind as a weapon to conquer the dragon surfaces in passages of the Old Testament as well.
In the Book of Job we read, "By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand piercing the fleeing serpent" (Job 26:13).
In the crossing of the Red Sea a wind dries up the sea so that the Israelites may pass (Ex. 14:21).
And before the opening of the seventh seal in Revelation we find, "Four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, 'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads.'" (Rev. 7:1-3)
The message here is that before God unleashes the winds that will destroy the dragon, those who have been obedient to Him must be marked so that they will be safe during the battle.
After Marduk defeats Tiamat he slices her in half. Out of one portion of her body he fashions the arc of the sky to hold back the waters of the cosmic sea above, and out of the other portion he establishes the firmament.
We have seen already how this conception of the creation event incorporates itself into Genesis and other books such as Psalms, and then emerges once again in Revelation with the creation of a new heaven and a new earth.
The frequent occurrence throughout the bible of this theme of the act of creation being dependent upon the slaying of a watery dragon suggests strongly that both Old and New Testament literature draw heavily upon the Babylonian Myth Enuma Elish.
You can find more information covering a broad range of ideas for the concept of the serpent found in the Scriptures.
http://www.creation-science.us/creationism/dragon.html
Anyway, whenever you feel like formally debating the concept of evil in relation to God, just let me know -- ok?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2005 1:06 PM arachnophilia has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 290 of 302 (220311)
06-28-2005 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by ringo
06-27-2005 6:34 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
Funny how you were all lovey-dovey until the subject of gay marriage came up.
I am still lovey dovey, its you that I am worried about. You immediately agreed that you would call me a Gay basher. Well I do not take to kindly to those words. I grew up in NYC, with lots of gays, and I seen real gay bashing. So I would appreciate not being lumped into that category. I was even raised liberal, I was always taught to treat everyone the same regards of race color, sexual taste or whatever. It was life that showed me different. Basically, the only thing I am against is saying the same sex marriage, and traditional marriages are the same. They are not, that is very clear.
I even know people who used to be gay, and are against it.
Do you know anybody who "used to be" black?
Congrats, I think that is the dumbest quote I ever read since I joined this forum. But I still love you.
Yet you want to deprive them of the joys of marriage.
Statistics would say that 50% of marriages do not end up in joy. That is why there must be protection on their part. They are many more legal reasons why. Start another thread about it, I wont join it, cause I been through it all already, you have nothing new to say about it.
God knows what else you want to deprive them of.
And you do to now. And that is nothing, let me guess, your gay?
Now back to the topic, because this conversation went exactly the way I knew it would. It seems that people who hate dogmatic fundies, of which I am not, can't control themselves, and think by bashing fundies, that they are going to make a difference in the world.
Which brings me to another point. How dare you call me a gay basher, when you are a basher of sorts yourself. Just awesome. That will accomplish a lot in this world.
If you can show me one verse in the bible that tells me I should condone sinning, then I might reconsider my stance, I will examine why I feel this way in my heart, what even cause me to become this way. What do you think God would do if Adam started having gay sex in the garden; with say a male angel or something? How do you think the story would have gone. Search your heart for the answer, don’t even tell me.
Enough of the gay crap. Back to the topic.
Far from it. I don't like the term because people parrot it in the same way that they parrot "born again", without understanding what it means.
Let's assume you and I both know what it means. So stop dodging the question, and give a yes or no answer.
No, let's not assume anything.
Well that just about sums it up, nice talking with ya. I honestly gave it a try.
Don't take this wrong, I do not think your a bad person. The only thing I really got from you, was, you do not like to "coin phrases", why I do not know. You seem to interpret the bible wrong, to suite your own needs. And it's not that being different from me is wrong, because aracnophillia does it different than me, and I may disagree with he/she, but it doesn't seem wrong to me, and seems plausible. What arac says puts you to think. What you say, just doesn't seem to match the spirit of the bible.
You also have a, know it all attitude. I do not think you ever conceded one thought of yours. You assume that you've been to more fundy churches than I've had hot meals. There's a lot to be sad about church hoppers too. Plus you slander them and put them all in a category. I am not disagreeing with you, just that I do not do that myself. I used to before I knew the Spirit.
Everything has a purpose.
You also continue to not answer my questions. The last time you just did it, you gave me the impression that you feel that I am not worth your answer, and had to demonstrate it in public. There should be no shame in your opinion, or the way you think. I am proud of the way I think whether it is right/wrong. It's the best I can do, based on my life experiences, and the brain God gave me.
I am not judging you, but it is my opinion of you based on the facts of this conversation. I do not wish for you to change.
Back in message 223, I summed up my answer the OP, and got a pretty good response. I don't think you have summed up your answer.
I also just want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me, as I did learn a lot from digging deeper into the bible, to answer your questions, and challenge your wrong statements. It helped me to come up with what I did come up with.
Funny, tonight in a prayer service, we actually talked about original sin, and there is more in the bible that I did not know about, that further confirms that what Adam did was an original sin, and we all suffer from it. I think I might start another thread.
So if you care to, you can answer some of my questions, through out this thread that I have asked you, or at least sum up an answer to the OP. I will give you the last word, bash away. I'll see you in the next thread.
Chow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 06-27-2005 6:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 06-28-2005 2:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 291 of 302 (220314)
06-28-2005 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by riVeRraT
06-28-2005 1:50 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
I don't think you have summed up your answer.
See Message 267
The rest of your post speaks for itself:
quote:
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20)
quote:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 06-28-2005 1:50 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by riVeRraT, posted 06-28-2005 12:38 PM ringo has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 292 of 302 (220449)
06-28-2005 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by ringo
06-28-2005 2:28 AM


Re: Dead Spirits
riVeRraT writes:
I don't think you have summed up your answer.
See Message 267
The rest of your post speaks f
267 was my post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 06-28-2005 2:28 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by ringo, posted 06-28-2005 1:07 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 293 of 302 (220459)
06-28-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by riVeRraT
06-28-2005 12:38 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
Oops. Typo. Try Message 268

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by riVeRraT, posted 06-28-2005 12:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by riVeRraT, posted 06-28-2005 5:29 PM ringo has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 294 of 302 (220554)
06-28-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by ringo
06-28-2005 1:07 PM


Re: Dead Spirits
17. Final conclusion (and answer to the OP): The Tree of Life is still where it always was, metaphorically waiting for us to choose it.
Well, what do you know, we agree on something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by ringo, posted 06-28-2005 1:07 PM ringo has not replied

Philip
Member (Idle past 4713 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 295 of 302 (220558)
06-28-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by arachnophilia
06-16-2005 10:37 PM


Re: Surely Die?
"i think a god who works good in the evil of others is more powerful than a god who doesn't even see evil."
... A God that "cannot wink at evil" ... seems perhaps implied by "doesn't even see evil" ...
... Might it perhaps be a diametrically opposite meaning as an idiom or such?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by arachnophilia, posted 06-16-2005 10:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by arachnophilia, posted 06-29-2005 5:35 PM Philip has not replied

d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 302 (220595)
06-28-2005 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by zephyr
06-07-2005 10:13 PM


God is very human?
How about humans are very GODLIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We were created in HIS IMAGE!
Man, where do these dumbbells come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by zephyr, posted 06-07-2005 10:13 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by zephyr, posted 06-28-2005 11:03 PM d_yankee has not replied
 Message 298 by lfen, posted 06-29-2005 12:36 AM d_yankee has not replied
 Message 299 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2005 8:42 AM d_yankee has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 297 of 302 (220597)
06-28-2005 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by d_yankee
06-28-2005 10:49 PM


Re: God is very human?
...and where do all these dogmatic, condescending bastards come from?
If you can't be bothered to read my post, comprehend my logic, and respond to it in a rational manner, then you have nothing of value to contribute here. That you have the gall to insult my intelligence when you cannot even substantially reply to my points bodes very poorly for your productiveness in a debate forum like this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by d_yankee, posted 06-28-2005 10:49 PM d_yankee has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 298 of 302 (220605)
06-29-2005 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by d_yankee
06-28-2005 10:49 PM


Re: God is very human?
Man, where do these dumbbells come from?
Ummmmm ... where do you come from?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by d_yankee, posted 06-28-2005 10:49 PM d_yankee has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 299 of 302 (220635)
06-29-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by d_yankee
06-28-2005 10:49 PM


Re: God is very human?
Yea,,,believe in Christ or else you idiot!!
God is all loving,,,you jerk-off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by d_yankee, posted 06-28-2005 10:49 PM d_yankee has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 06-29-2005 12:00 PM riVeRraT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 300 of 302 (220673)
06-29-2005 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by riVeRraT
06-29-2005 8:42 AM


Re: God is very human?
riVeRraT writes:
Yea,,,believe in Christ or else you idiot!!
God is all loving,,,you jerk-off.
This is why you should never play with humour unless you know what you're doing.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by riVeRraT, posted 06-29-2005 8:42 AM riVeRraT has not replied

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