Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 378 (219633)
06-25-2005 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by AdminAsgara
06-25-2005 2:36 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines reminder
I meant message 217.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-25-2005 2:36 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 227 of 378 (219640)
06-25-2005 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by d_yankee
06-25-2005 10:36 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines reminder
d,
I do not see how my reminder could be construed as "lashing out."
Chiroptera is a long term member in good standing. If you want him to support his assertions, please ask and I have no doubt that he will oblige. Your history, on the other hand, is a little more haphazard, and seems to be one of jumping all over the fora making assertions and disappearing without defending your arguments.
Please prove me wrong, it would make me very happy.
Any issues with this post, please reply in the appropriate thread in my signature box.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by d_yankee, posted 06-25-2005 10:36 PM d_yankee has not replied

Jabez1000
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 378 (220018)
06-27-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Kapyong
06-25-2005 7:51 PM


Re: The Greatest Conspiracy Theory Ever Sold
Hi, Iasion. You said
"The Gospel stories did not arise till a century or soo after the alleged events"
and
"when the Gospels arose in early-mid 2nd century in Rome..."
If this is the case then you should be able to refute the points on the Authorship of John's gospel, message 206 of this topic.
One thing I want to add about the term procurator. In the Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, under procurator it says "The frequently applied title procurator to Pontius Pilate is due to the historian Josephus who did not always give in Greek the exact translation of Latin Titles." Oxford Dictionary of the Bible by W.R.F. Browning, p.303 Oxford University Press 1996.
Under prefect (p. 301) it says "'Prefect' is the title accorded to Pontius Pilate in the inscription from Caeseara, but he is called a procurator by Jospehus. The two terms are almost synonymous."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Kapyong, posted 06-25-2005 7:51 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 12:13 AM Jabez1000 has replied

d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 378 (221023)
06-30-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by randman
05-28-2005 10:13 PM


Re: Preaching, not evidence
Randman,
You are absolutely correct with what you are saying. I observing from a neutral standpoint am noticing that these that you are debating with "seem" to have no interest in reality, but what they dogmatically have chosen to believe...or deny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 05-28-2005 10:13 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by randman, posted 07-01-2005 2:28 AM d_yankee has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 230 of 378 (221044)
07-01-2005 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Jabez1000
06-27-2005 12:39 PM


Re: The Greatest Conspiracy Theory Ever Sold
Greetings Jabez1000,
quote:
Unless their are records that show the specific date it can't be determined exactly when the practice of putting people "out of the synagogue" began.
I never claimed an exact date.
Scholars don't claim an exact date - as you noted, its estimated to be 85-95 or so.
But what exactly is your point?
Are you claiming that the Christians WERE ejected from the Temple in the 30s?
Based on what?
Can you explain what YOU think this has to do with showing the Gospel was by John?
quote:
I've read that Ireneaus was a disciple of Polycarp who knew John from Ephesus and may have been his disciple.
Read where?
That he MAY have?
Produce the evidence,
Show why YOU think this proves something about the authorship of G.John.
quote:
About 180 AD Irenaeus wrote "The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men. From this it is clear that the Word, the artificer of all things, being manifested to men gave us the gospel, fourfold in form but held together by one Spirit." (Against Heresies 3.11.8)
Yes he did.
Can you explain why YOU think this fable proves anything about the authorship of G.John?
quote:
Greek scholar Daniel Wallace gives a short but good examination of the authorship of John's Gospel at Page not found | Bible.org
Peter Kirby's site shows why this Gospel was not written by a disciple.
Gospel of John
quote:
In John chapter 5 there's a story of an invalid who was healed by a pool called Bethesda. In 1886 archaelogists excavated the ruins of the pool. It would have been destroyed in 70 AD but John wrote of it in the present tense. Speaking of John 5:2 Wallace states (a) "the verb is (ejstin) cannot be a historical present, and (b) the pool was destroyed in 70 CE. By far the most plausible conclusion is that this gospel was written before 70 CE." On the gospel itself he says "The author uses the historical present more than any other gospel writer (161 times) and in such a way as to indicate vividness of portrayal. One should note the especially heavy use in chapter 4 and the passion narrative. This suggests the vivid recollections of an eyewitness."
Gone with the Wind includes historical places and things that are now destroyed.
Therefore according to your argument, Gone with the Wind is a true story.
James Bond novels are written in the 1st person.
Therefore according to your argument, James Bond is a real.
This is a silly argument - did you think about it at all?
quote:
Warren Berkley makes some good points about John's knowledge of the area of which he wrote:
What on earth do you think this has to do with proving it was written by apostle John?
Everyone who lived in the region would know of the area!
5 Romans legions were in the region - 1000s of people knew the sights.
Do you REALLY think this proves ANYTHING?
Seriously?
If so, can you explain WHY you think this proves John wrote the Gospel?
I wrote:
"The Gospel stories did not arise till a century or so after the alleged events"
You conspicously FAILED to provide any reply or rebuttal to this.
Can you show a clear quote from a named Gospel within a century of the alleged vents?
Can you explain why you think your vague claims about G.John have anything to do with the lateness of the Gospels entering the Christian record?
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Jabez1000, posted 06-27-2005 12:39 PM Jabez1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 12:37 AM Kapyong has replied
 Message 245 by Jabez1000, posted 07-01-2005 10:59 AM Kapyong has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 378 (221047)
07-01-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 12:13 AM


The style of the New Testament
The literary style of the New Testament is such that I would find it very difficult to believe that someone corresponding to Jesus in some sense never existed. The details are realistic, not mythic (ignoring the supernatural parts). All the references to particular places and times is very unlike mythic writings.
There are also comments, that if it were all fraudulent, should have been omitted by those who came later, such as the comment by Jesus that he would return within the lifetime of those he was talking to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 12:13 AM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 1:37 AM robinrohan has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 232 of 378 (221058)
07-01-2005 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by robinrohan
07-01-2005 12:37 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
Greetings,
quote:
The details are realistic, not mythic (ignoring the supernatural parts).
So,
if you IGNORE the mythic parts,
the non-mythic parts that remain
show it was all non-mythical.
Are you serious?
How about this theory instead :
if you IGNORE the non-mythic parts,
the mythic parts that remain,
show it was all mythical.
quote:
All the references to particular places and times is very unlike mythic writings.
Really ?
Who said ?
What is the evidence ?
Please show how they are unlike.
What is the difference between
the real places and times in the Gospels and the
the real places and times in the Illiad?
What is the difference between
the real places and times in the Gospels and the
the real places and times in the Golden Ass of Apuleis?
Obviously,
your claim is false.
Many fictional writings have real places and times -
* Gone With the Wind
* Sherlock Holmes
* James Bond
According to YOUR theory, these are all TRUE STORIES.
quote:
There are also comments, that if it were all fraudulent, should have been omitted by those who came later, such as the comment by Jesus that he would return within the lifetime of those he was talking to.
Fraud?
I said nothing about fraud.
Once again apologists just CANNOT seem to GRASP the issue.
Is Gone With the Wind true?
If not, then you believe its a fraud.
Is Sherlock Holmes true?
If not, then you believe its a fraud.
Is James Bond true?
If not, then you believe its a fraud.
Do you really believe there are only 2 types of documents in the world?
true history
or
fraud?
Is THAT what you believe?
No,
it's NOT a fraud - there was no clear intent to deceive.
It's LITERATURE, religious literature meant to inspire and inform.
There is no evidence it was ever meant as HISTORY.
quote:
I find it very difficult to believe that someone corresponding to Jesus in some sense never existed
This is the true part of your post - you BELIEVE in Jesus - evidence comes 2nd.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 12:37 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:41 AM Kapyong has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 233 of 378 (221065)
07-01-2005 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by d_yankee
06-30-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Preaching, not evidence
Thank you for the support with those words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by d_yankee, posted 06-30-2005 10:43 PM d_yankee has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 234 of 378 (221071)
07-01-2005 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 1:37 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
I don't "believe" in Jesus in a religious sense, but I do in a historical sense. It does not have the flavor of a novel. I've read many novels. That's my expertise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 1:37 AM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 2:48 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 239 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 3:30 AM robinrohan has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 235 of 378 (221073)
07-01-2005 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by robinrohan
07-01-2005 2:41 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
I don't "believe" in Jesus in a religious sense, but I do in a historical sense. It does not have the flavor of a novel.
Well of course not. How could it? The novel is a comparatively recent literary form.
No one is claiming that the authors of the Gospels were writing fiction. Earl Doherty claims Mark was writing a midrash on the old testament to give scriptural authority to Paul's visionary experience of an other worldly Christ. But there are other ways to arrive at Gospels that aren't historically accurate other than claiming they were novels. No one was writing novels in those days, and wouldn't for over a thousand years.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:41 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:50 AM lfen has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 378 (221075)
07-01-2005 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by lfen
07-01-2005 2:48 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
The poster above was comparing it to novels. He mentions several.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 2:48 AM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:56 AM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 378 (221076)
07-01-2005 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by robinrohan
07-01-2005 2:50 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
And Ifen, there were many things written at that time that were very like novels--only there were written in verse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:50 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 3:13 AM robinrohan has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 238 of 378 (221082)
07-01-2005 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by robinrohan
07-01-2005 2:56 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
Well, the gospels weren't written as epic poems. They are written as midrash on the OT and as history of the Christ.
The old testament histories are similiar to many later histories in that they were propaganda for a point of view of a particular political religious party. They weren't commited to accuracy they were commited to painting the picture that would bolster the viewpoint of the Yahwists who sought a centralized Jerusalem temple, or in the case of the gospel's who sought to establish that Jesus was the messiah. Question is was the Jesus a historical person, or a mystical experience Paul and others had of a spiritual person.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:56 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 10:06 AM lfen has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 239 of 378 (221086)
07-01-2005 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by robinrohan
07-01-2005 2:41 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
Greetings,
quote:
I don't "believe" in Jesus in a religious sense, but I do in a historical sense.
But yet you cannot provide any historical evidence for a historical Jesus?
quote:
It does not have the flavor of a novel.
I did not call it a novel.
I called it spiritual literature - a better term is "midrash" in this case, as pointed out by lfen.
Can you please tell us exactly what the flavour of a novel is?
Can you please tell us exactly what the flavour of the Gospels is?
Can you then please show the difference between these 2 flavours?
quote:
I've read many novels. That's my expertise.
Reading many novels makes you an expert at analysing ancient documents?
What does your expertise say about The Illiad?
What does your expertise say about The Golden Ass of Apuleis?
What does your expertise say about The Satyricon of Petronius?
What does your expertise say about the Homeric poems of Quintus?
What does your expertise say about Plutarch's Isis and Osiris?
What does your expertise say about Appian?
What does your expertise say about Caesar's Commentaries?
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:41 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 3:36 AM Kapyong has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 378 (221088)
07-01-2005 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 3:30 AM


Re: The style of the New Testament
I did not call it a novel.
Did you not compare it to novels ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 3:30 AM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by ramoss, posted 07-01-2005 9:01 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 247 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 8:08 PM robinrohan has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024