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Member Posts: 3941 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: The Existence of Jesus Christ | |||||||||||||||||||||||
d_yankee Inactive Member |
I meant message 217.
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2303 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
d,
I do not see how my reminder could be construed as "lashing out." Chiroptera is a long term member in good standing. If you want him to support his assertions, please ask and I have no doubt that he will oblige. Your history, on the other hand, is a little more haphazard, and seems to be one of jumping all over the fora making assertions and disappearing without defending your arguments. Please prove me wrong, it would make me very happy. Any issues with this post, please reply in the appropriate thread in my signature box. AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Introducing the new "Boot Camp" forum Other useful links: Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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Jabez1000 Inactive Member |
Hi, Iasion. You said
"The Gospel stories did not arise till a century or soo after the alleged events" and "when the Gospels arose in early-mid 2nd century in Rome..." If this is the case then you should be able to refute the points on the Authorship of John's gospel, message 206 of this topic. One thing I want to add about the term procurator. In the Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, under procurator it says "The frequently applied title procurator to Pontius Pilate is due to the historian Josephus who did not always give in Greek the exact translation of Latin Titles." Oxford Dictionary of the Bible by W.R.F. Browning, p.303 Oxford University Press 1996. Under prefect (p. 301) it says "'Prefect' is the title accorded to Pontius Pilate in the inscription from Caeseara, but he is called a procurator by Jospehus. The two terms are almost synonymous."
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d_yankee Inactive Member |
Randman,
You are absolutely correct with what you are saying. I observing from a neutral standpoint am noticing that these that you are debating with "seem" to have no interest in reality, but what they dogmatically have chosen to believe...or deny.
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3443 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Greetings Jabez1000,
quote: I never claimed an exact date.Scholars don't claim an exact date - as you noted, its estimated to be 85-95 or so. But what exactly is your point?Are you claiming that the Christians WERE ejected from the Temple in the 30s? Based on what? Can you explain what YOU think this has to do with showing the Gospel was by John?
quote: Read where?That he MAY have? Produce the evidence,Show why YOU think this proves something about the authorship of G.John. quote: Yes he did.Can you explain why YOU think this fable proves anything about the authorship of G.John? quote: Peter Kirby's site shows why this Gospel was not written by a disciple.Gospel of John quote: Gone with the Wind includes historical places and things that are now destroyed.Therefore according to your argument, Gone with the Wind is a true story. James Bond novels are written in the 1st person.Therefore according to your argument, James Bond is a real. This is a silly argument - did you think about it at all?
quote: What on earth do you think this has to do with proving it was written by apostle John?Everyone who lived in the region would know of the area! 5 Romans legions were in the region - 1000s of people knew the sights. Do you REALLY think this proves ANYTHING?Seriously? If so, can you explain WHY you think this proves John wrote the Gospel? I wrote:"The Gospel stories did not arise till a century or so after the alleged events" You conspicously FAILED to provide any reply or rebuttal to this. Can you show a clear quote from a named Gospel within a century of the alleged vents? Can you explain why you think your vague claims about G.John have anything to do with the lateness of the Gospels entering the Christian record? Iasion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The literary style of the New Testament is such that I would find it very difficult to believe that someone corresponding to Jesus in some sense never existed. The details are realistic, not mythic (ignoring the supernatural parts). All the references to particular places and times is very unlike mythic writings.
There are also comments, that if it were all fraudulent, should have been omitted by those who came later, such as the comment by Jesus that he would return within the lifetime of those he was talking to.
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3443 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Greetings,
quote: So,if you IGNORE the mythic parts, the non-mythic parts that remain show it was all non-mythical. Are you serious? How about this theory instead :if you IGNORE the non-mythic parts, the mythic parts that remain, show it was all mythical. quote: Really ?Who said ? What is the evidence ? Please show how they are unlike. What is the difference betweenthe real places and times in the Gospels and the the real places and times in the Illiad? What is the difference betweenthe real places and times in the Gospels and the the real places and times in the Golden Ass of Apuleis? Obviously,your claim is false. Many fictional writings have real places and times -* Gone With the Wind * Sherlock Holmes * James Bond According to YOUR theory, these are all TRUE STORIES.
quote: Fraud? I said nothing about fraud.Once again apologists just CANNOT seem to GRASP the issue. Is Gone With the Wind true?If not, then you believe its a fraud. Is Sherlock Holmes true?If not, then you believe its a fraud. Is James Bond true?If not, then you believe its a fraud. Do you really believe there are only 2 types of documents in the world?true history or fraud? Is THAT what you believe? No,it's NOT a fraud - there was no clear intent to deceive. It's LITERATURE, religious literature meant to inspire and inform. There is no evidence it was ever meant as HISTORY.
quote: This is the true part of your post - you BELIEVE in Jesus - evidence comes 2nd. Iasion
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4900 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Thank you for the support with those words.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I don't "believe" in Jesus in a religious sense, but I do in a historical sense. It does not have the flavor of a novel. I've read many novels. That's my expertise.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
I don't "believe" in Jesus in a religious sense, but I do in a historical sense. It does not have the flavor of a novel. Well of course not. How could it? The novel is a comparatively recent literary form. No one is claiming that the authors of the Gospels were writing fiction. Earl Doherty claims Mark was writing a midrash on the old testament to give scriptural authority to Paul's visionary experience of an other worldly Christ. But there are other ways to arrive at Gospels that aren't historically accurate other than claiming they were novels. No one was writing novels in those days, and wouldn't for over a thousand years. lfen
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The poster above was comparing it to novels. He mentions several.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
And Ifen, there were many things written at that time that were very like novels--only there were written in verse.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Well, the gospels weren't written as epic poems. They are written as midrash on the OT and as history of the Christ.
The old testament histories are similiar to many later histories in that they were propaganda for a point of view of a particular political religious party. They weren't commited to accuracy they were commited to painting the picture that would bolster the viewpoint of the Yahwists who sought a centralized Jerusalem temple, or in the case of the gospel's who sought to establish that Jesus was the messiah. Question is was the Jesus a historical person, or a mystical experience Paul and others had of a spiritual person. lfen
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3443 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Greetings,
quote: But yet you cannot provide any historical evidence for a historical Jesus?
quote: I did not call it a novel.I called it spiritual literature - a better term is "midrash" in this case, as pointed out by lfen. Can you please tell us exactly what the flavour of a novel is?Can you please tell us exactly what the flavour of the Gospels is? Can you then please show the difference between these 2 flavours?
quote: Reading many novels makes you an expert at analysing ancient documents? What does your expertise say about The Illiad?What does your expertise say about The Golden Ass of Apuleis? What does your expertise say about The Satyricon of Petronius? What does your expertise say about the Homeric poems of Quintus? What does your expertise say about Plutarch's Isis and Osiris? What does your expertise say about Appian? What does your expertise say about Caesar's Commentaries? Iasion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I did not call it a novel. Did you not compare it to novels ?
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