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Author Topic:   Christian conversion experience: descriptions/analysis/links: input invited
Faith 
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Message 157 of 199 (219938)
06-27-2005 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by randman
06-27-2005 4:52 AM


Re: Glossolalia (speaking in tongues)
I'm ready to believe in miracles in tribal or third world countries because I can see their usefulness there among the pagan religions, just as they were useful in spreading the gospel in the establishment of the early Church. And I AM aware of the small ministries and the spread of pentecostalism throughout the world, huge crowds in Africa for instance. I hope some of it is genuine.

This message has been edited by Faith, 06-27-2005 05:37 AM


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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 158 of 199 (219944)
06-27-2005 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by randman
06-27-2005 4:52 AM


Re: Glossolalia (speaking in tongues)
I don't know if they are authentic or not, but just as a point of order, your statement is probably not that accurate.

By numbers of denominations it is certainly accurate.


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Faith 
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Message 163 of 199 (220032)
06-27-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by lfen
06-27-2005 1:01 PM


Re: Glossolalia (speaking in tongues)
Riiiigghht. NEUROLOGY is going to explain why a person praying in English suddenly starts speaking strange sounds, who has never done it before in her life. Riggghhht.

This message has been edited by Faith, 06-27-2005 01:07 PM

{EDIT: That's kind of like thinking that an understanding of how the internal combustion engine works is going to explain how you ended up in Kansas when you started out for New York.

This message has been edited by Faith, 06-27-2005 01:33 PM


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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
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Message 165 of 199 (220042)
06-27-2005 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by lfen
06-27-2005 1:35 PM


Re: Glossolalia (speaking in tongues)
As I just added by edit to my previous answer:

{EDIT: That's kind of like thinking that an understanding of how the internal combustion engine works is going to explain how you ended up in Kansas when you started out for New York.

Speaking in tongues occurs in a context. People who don't believe in God don't just start doing it in the grocery aisle. Neurology isn't going to explain WHY it happens as it does, no matter how much is understood about the neural pathways THROUGH WHICH it happens.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
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Message 167 of 199 (220062)
06-27-2005 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by lfen
06-27-2005 2:00 PM


Re: Glossolalia (speaking in tongues)
In those other cultures it also doesn't occur outside specific religious meanings. I'm sorry, nothing in the physical mechanical realm, the brain, the neurons, whatever, is EVER going to explain MEANING or occurrences within a meaningful context.

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Faith 
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Message 168 of 199 (220106)
06-27-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by randman
06-27-2005 12:39 PM


Re: charismatic experiences
The devil in the Bible exited however, and the damage was done in the process. The idea that they get to have a good time tossing around their victim before they exit stretches the Biblical model to say the least IMHO. But I'm kind of sorry I posted those examples as I don't really want to identify anyone. I hope you will not mind if I go back and erase them. I'll know what you are referring to if you bring it up again.

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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 186 of 199 (221294)
07-02-2005 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
07-01-2005 11:38 PM


Re: Christian conversion experience: descriptions/analysis/links: input invited
Quite a touching story, Mr. Ex. I'm glad you told it.

Even back when I converted to Lutheranism, I still found myself worried over the fate of non-believers -- and I felt even back then that something was not right with certain aspect's of protestantism in regards to the nature of Christ's salvation for those who have never had a chance to hear the gospel message.

Not to get back into that discussion again, I hope, but up until Vatican II didn't the Catholic Church also believe that nonChristians couldn't be saved, and not only complete unbelievers but Protestants as well?


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
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Message 188 of 199 (221362)
07-02-2005 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
07-02-2005 8:19 AM


Off topic about Catholic idea of who can be saved
So it is cast as a reinterpretation or a fuller understanding or something along those lines, I gather, but I distinctly remember the unequivocal statement by Catholics that Protestants could not be saved, and certainly no one else outside the Roman Church could either, ONLY those who specifically belonged to the Roman Catholic Church, and that notion had prevailed certainly since the Reformation.

This message has been edited by Faith, 07-02-2005 03:33 PM

This message has been edited by Faith, 07-02-2005 03:34 PM


This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 190 of 199 (221371)
07-02-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
07-02-2005 4:04 PM


Re: Off topic about Catholic idea of who can be saved
No I'm really not up to continuing it, thanks. Most of those quotes pretty clearly affirm that there is no salvation outside the literal Catholic Church as I read them, until we get down to Cardinal Ratzinger's statement. In any case my point was that the average Catholic was certain that nobody outside his own literal Church could be saved.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 197 of 199 (224139)
07-16-2005 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
06-02-2005 11:15 PM


Some history
I happen to be doing a little research of my own into charismatic phenomena and thought I'd post some references here, since what you are describing as normal Christian "conversion" is not that at all, as I and others have tried to tell you. Most of it derives from the recent (19th to early 20th century) Pentecostal and (1960s) Charismatic movements. What you call "touch" conversion in your opening post is a Pentecostal/Charismatic phenomenon. Speaking in tongues also derives from this movement, and faith healing, and the movement is highly controversial despite its huge number of followers.

Here's some historical background and criticism from a Christian point of view which you certainly need if you are going to say anything relevant at all:

The first link takes a neutral stance and aims to give a complete historical outline of the theological developments from John Wesley through today's charismatics:

The Origins of the Pentecostal Movement

Next, an article that denounces ALL Pentecostalism and Charismaticism as false doctrine, in rather strong language:

Azusa Street: Birth of a Lie

Last, a Biblical critique of faith healing:

The False Doctrine that Healing is in the Atonement

This message has been edited by Faith, 07-16-2005 06:31 PM


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